Losing friends because of GC views

[CervixSampler]

Last week I was chatting to a friend and the subject came up and they are fully twaw, changing sex is possible, JKR and her ilk are evil etc. This is someone I've known for a long time and it's surprised me. I can see us falling out over it. I thought very highly of them before this and it's made me question things. If you've been in a similar position how did you navigate it?

Interestingly most of the people I know are very supportive of JKR or just really don’t know much about any of it and haven’t formed an opinion.

There’s one friend I only see about twice a year (usually at parties). The last time I saw her we were having a perfectly normal conversation until she brought up her trans-identified male friend and it was utterly bizarre. She started gushing about how ‘beautiful’ and what a ‘wonderful person’ he was and ‘just one of the girls’.

The thing was, it was so unnatural and strange. There were a few raised eyebrows from others too. Even her husband looked a bit confused. And it couldn’t have been clearer that the person she was trying to convince herself as much as others around her. also a very clear sign he was male because she would never speak about a woman like that.

I'm not particularly proud to say it but I couldn't be friends with someone who had bought into this ideology - it would seem like a betrayal of womanhood and everything I fought for as a second wave feminist.

It's pretty much the height of male privilege to view the discussion of global female oppression as 'small talk' or be 'weirded out' by it.
None of the women or girls mentioned in the examples has any choice in it. It's their lives and, all too often, their deaths.
It's not a 'weird' topic of conversation for anyone who supports even the most basic of human rights for women.

I met and really liked a woman - good fun and we thought the same on so many subjects. Except I learned after 9 months or so, this. We had to agree to disagree.

But then I realised that she has very black and white thinking, and won't consider a new view point, and I started to go off her.

Then I noticed how she only ever talks (entertainingly) about herself and her own concerns. So now I realise I don't like her.

Happily she's moved away, so that's that. She gave me her new address but I seem to have lost it.

But it sounds like your friend thinks TW are actually female, so the opposite of male.

A heterosexual male who genuinely believes that TWAW wouldn't have an issue with sleeping with an intact TW in principle, and especially wouldn't have a leg to stand on if their refusal is based on the fact they're heterosexual. Unless they're lying about believing that TWA actually W, of course...

@LonginesPrime exactly.

I bring it up once and if it doesn't go well I completely steer clear of the topic in future. They'll then know that you have those views and when, inevitably, they are negatively affected by it in a year's time they'll know they can open up to you. In the meantime there is no point in keep going over it again and again. Most reasonable people can tolerate a level of disagreement on these things so long as you don't get preachy and attempt to change their minds (or vice versa). The other thing is don't bombard people with info. Just stick to one topic ... "I don't really agree that men should be competing in women's sports" and then leave it at that or change the subject to something else so the message is out there but it doesn't get so serious. I never believed TWAW but I was in the be kind camp prior to 2017 and I'm not sure anyone could have changed my mind until it affected me personally.

I didn't bring it up in the first place. He said what an awful person JKR is and I asked why. He met her once and she was rude and she makes lgbtqa etc feel bad about who they are. I was tempted to ask for the receipts but I refrained. His wife is fully twaw too so there's not much hope. I won't be raising the issue again.

I don't like to cite age but the lack of critical thinking is apparent and not just on this issue. The male entitlement too. My own Dd is very GC and has those at school who are very militant in their approach but has a friend who is non-binary, lesbian and has ASD (Quelle surprise there hey) and will happily chat to Dd and not force her opinions on others. She's quite happy to be called she by Dd. School are full on captured but individual teachers are GC too and I do believe the tide is turning from no debate.

I'll stick to talking about it on here.

After spending more time with this guy in a group setting the misogyny was coming through loud and clear along with a sense of entitlement.

good call. Perhaps you should have called this thread:

"Losing a friend because of his misoginist views"

Do make sure you tell him why you don't want to socialise any more so he learns.

Perhaps I should have. After all the issue is cervix deep in misogyny, sexism, and homophobia.

There is a difference between being gender critical and transphobic. I couldn't be friends with anyone transphobic but habing GC views is a different thing altogether. I also have friends with different political views. We just choose not to talk about it

How do you personally differentiate? Certainly given that even questioning the notion of gender identity is seen as being transphobic.

This whole issue will fizzle out and vanish soon so there’s no point getting involved in debates.

It won't "fizzle out" without a push. It needs to be countered.

Gender critical imo is critically evaluating facts and opinion logically and being open to discussion abd views

Being transphobic is hateful as is any" phobic"

We all need to push. Strongly clearly, publically.

it starts here and then goes out to our conversations at work with friends and family

this started through silence

stop being silent

The more people who voice their opinions against this lunacy, the more "fashionable" this opinion becomes. We've seen that most people only do it out of fashion, not of actual thinking whether things are right or wrong.

No, it is an irrational fear.

I think it is important that the meaning of phobia isn't distorted. Words have meanings and 'queering' these meanings has been shown over the last few years to be a very bad thing. I know that some activists do use phobia/phobic to mean hate or hateful but they are wrong.

Being critical of the concept of gender inevitably involves being critical of gender ideology. I don't see how you can deny that? It is a logical inevitability.

Remember two things can be true at the same time; you and agree to disagree and also still be friends. I have very Christian friends whose views differ to mine on some points but I would never give up the friendship on that basis.

Bet you would if they tried to shame you into converting

Ok Wims, it happened to me last night, but the friends are not TWAW so much as fairly clueless about the issues. And who could blame them, it's not like the Guardian or the BBC have been doing their jobs of reporting news.

It was a regular meet-up to play board games. Three women, one man. The topic came up very naturally in conversation (not by me) because someone was finding it difficult to navigate a simple response to a question. Something very basic but she stumbled between sister and sibling which another woman caught up on and questioned. Just a very innocent 'what happened there, is she not her sister?' kind of thing.

"They are a they not a she now and I hate the way this tortures language" and we were off.

The man pretty early on said 'but it is known that there are 72...uh...things..." And here it gets interesting/confusing because he did not know what there were 72 of, exactly.

However, the women were clear in their understanding and seemed to get what little of the issue we could cover in about 10 minutes and I don't think I am about to lose them as friends. I didn't know the subject was going to come up but I just spoke calmly, plainly, without a hint of rant. I hope. Except I might have been very quick to chip in whenever the man confused sex and gender. :) It may be a bit difficult with the man going forward because he would have understandable sympathies with an extended family MCW. I was entirely reality based in my pronoun use which might have jarred. Hey ho.

Someone who is GC is unlikely to be swayed by arguments about sex spectrums etc. as that goes with the territory. They are also likely to say that transwomen should not be in women's spaces, places, sports, prizes, prisons and refuges, which some construe as transphobic. What then?