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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Losing friends because of GC views

49 replies

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 14:01

Last week I was chatting to a friend and the subject came up and they are fully twaw, changing sex is possible, JKR and her ilk are evil etc. This is someone I've known for a long time and it's surprised me. I can see us falling out over it. I thought very highly of them before this and it's made me question things. If you've been in a similar position how did you navigate it?

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Xiaoxiong · 03/12/2024 14:09

Similar situation with a group of 4 friends since school. Two are TWAW and two are sex realists. We have never spoken of it again, because I know they would cut me and other friend off immediately if I brought it up, and I value our friendship and can easily be friends with people who don't agree with me on all things. I do hope that one day they will reason their way out of this cult-like indoctrination.

I do rather hopelessly continue to try and challenge my own arguments as maybe I will actually realise TWAW and I can stop walking on eggshells...but so far, educating myself has convinced me further that on this subject I and other friend are in the right and they are not (perhaps no coincidence that she and I are mothers of older children, the other two have only had children in the past year - and I certainly found motherhood radicalised me on this and many other issues).

NPET · 03/12/2024 14:13

I'm fortunate in that although I'm 20 and <<supposed>> to agree with your friend, I have several bffs who agree with me.
However I have other friends who DO NOT agree with me and EITHER we agree to disagree (I know, easier said than done if it's someone you see regularly, but it can be done) OR we fall out and merely send Chrissy cards hoping either of us has changed our views.

Sorry probably not much help, but that's my life!

Haroldwilson · 03/12/2024 14:17

Either avoid the subject or if you discuss it, make sure it's not when you've been drinking and focus on finding common ground rather than rehearsing the same old arguments.

Ultimately it would be a silly thing to lose a friendship over. Presumably neither of you are determining public policy so your opinions don't matter very much!

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 14:38

Some good advice, thank you. The friend is male so I think that makes a difference, plus younger than me by 20 years. I thought he was level headed and sensible then he tells me a bit of hrt and voila a man is a woman🤦‍♀️ Biology counts for nought.

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Crouton19 · 03/12/2024 15:33

Come at it from another angle in conversation, for example- women and girls rights in Afghanistan. Does your friend think women are forbidden from speaking because of their sex, or their gender identity? How do the authorities in Iran know who has to cover their hair? What about the men with a female gender identity, should they also cover their hair? Why is there such a population imbalance in India and China between male and female births? Does someone ask the unborn child its gender identity before deciding whether to abort? Women and girls cannot identify out of sex based oppression. No need to mention TW for your friends to understand this.

Christinapple · 03/12/2024 16:25

"How do the authorities in Iran know who has to cover their hair? What about the men with a female gender identity, should they also cover their hair? Why is there such a population imbalance in India and China between male and female births? Does someone ask the unborn child its gender identity before deciding whether to abort?"

tbh if any of my IRL friends randomly brought this up as a small talk conversation I'd be properly weirded out.

heldinadream · 03/12/2024 16:29

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 14:38

Some good advice, thank you. The friend is male so I think that makes a difference, plus younger than me by 20 years. I thought he was level headed and sensible then he tells me a bit of hrt and voila a man is a woman🤦‍♀️ Biology counts for nought.

"So you'd have sex with a transwoman then, right?" Pause. Head tilt. Listen and watch and wait.

maltravers · 03/12/2024 16:42

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 14:38

Some good advice, thank you. The friend is male so I think that makes a difference, plus younger than me by 20 years. I thought he was level headed and sensible then he tells me a bit of hrt and voila a man is a woman🤦‍♀️ Biology counts for nought.

Well there’s your answer. He’s a man, so the adverse effects of this are invisible to him/not his problem. Plus 20 years younger, so social death not to agree that War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength.

WarriorN · 03/12/2024 17:01

If they are very close to you I would personally never mention it or respond to any thing they say in relation to it in any way.

It will eventually filter through.

I'm finding I don't really know anyone who does think JK is terrible and twaw.

The sister in law of a very close friend is a raging tra from Brighton (and they're v close too) but said friend cares more about fair discussion and debate and our friendship so it hasn't been an issue. We've had the odd chat but it was more in relation to Caster S a few years ago, and she agreed on that score. So presumably agrees re sport. And has two daughter.

SereneCapybara · 03/12/2024 17:23

I must be honest and say I keep my mouth shut. I wish I didn't but DS1 is gay and the one subject he foams at the mouth over is JKR. He is entirely irrational about this - has refused to read a word she has said (if he did, he would be forced to admit she is no transphobe just a fair campaigner for women's rights) but he glares and changes the subject if her name even comes up.

And DS2 is dating a woman who identifies as a man (or used to... she wears a lot of lacy mini skirts and jewellery these days and has changed her name again to something far more feminine, so I am never sure, but too late to reverse the double masectomy 😥) One of my dearest friends also has a female to male trans teen.

If I spoke out, I would alienate too many people so very dear to me. I love DS2's partner - whether female or transmale - they are a gorgeous, sweet-natured, fun-spirited person who makes DS happy right now. I don't care how they dress or if they change their name every few months or that they want to be called they not he or she. All of that's fine by me and always was.

But I do care that 6 foot hulking men are thugging their way into women's sports, taking medals from sportswomen and putting female players in physical danger. I care that autogynophiles have carte blanche to bully and perve and control women in changing rooms, prisons, even rape crisis centres FFS. And tbh, I care on DS's partner's behalf that surgeons who should know better have removed this gorgeous person's breasts before they are old enough to truly know if they will ever want children and to breast feed.

And I am beyond exasperated that we cannot have a civil conversation about how dangerous and misogynistic it has been to conflate these complex and separate issues into one, bland, unquestionable #bekind theory that gives retrogressive power to too many deeply questionable and controlling men.

MrBungle · 03/12/2024 17:26

How can you be friends with someone who puts men above women? So clearly misogynistic?

Tell them they are wrong, clearly, with evidence - and let them decide to either change their mind or leave your friendship.

HothouseFlower · 03/12/2024 17:33

Christinapple · 03/12/2024 16:25

"How do the authorities in Iran know who has to cover their hair? What about the men with a female gender identity, should they also cover their hair? Why is there such a population imbalance in India and China between male and female births? Does someone ask the unborn child its gender identity before deciding whether to abort?"

tbh if any of my IRL friends randomly brought this up as a small talk conversation I'd be properly weirded out.

Yes, I imagine you would be "weirded out". Having to think critically about serious subjects does that to some people. Best stick to fluffy conversations.

This is the reality of being born female for women and girls in much of the world.

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 17:39

I doubt very much he'd had sex with a TW.
I hate the conflation of LGB with the T and the way it's assumed to be transphobic means you are also homophobic. Of course not wanting men in female spaces isn't transphobic anyway but let's not let the facts get in the way of feelings.

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ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 17:46

Oh OP, if it comes up again, do please ask him if he would have sex (or just say 'a relationship' if you are squeamish) with a transwoman.

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 18:04

Post or pre-transition? Or rather with penis or without? I doubt it would make a difference to him because the answer would be no either way.

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maltravers · 03/12/2024 18:05

Well said @SereneCapybara , wear what you want, present and name yourself as you wish, but women’s rights and young people’s bodies and health must still be protected.

wastingtimeonhere · 03/12/2024 18:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CervixSampler · 03/12/2024 19:45

@maltravers that's my thinking too.

When did biology become something to deny and hate and use against people?

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Shortshriftandlethal · 03/12/2024 20:03

Sometimes it is better to have fewer, but more meaningful, friendships......ones that can endure because you both have respect for each other.

What is it you get out of a friendship with a man 20 years younger than you? Genuine question.

popeydokey · 03/12/2024 20:17

'would you sleep with a TW' doesn't prove anything though. Who I do or don't want to sleep with is irrelevant to the question of whether a woman is a feeling or not.

'What would you say is one difference between a man and a woman?" might get them thinking.

Oblomov24 · 03/12/2024 20:56

They honesty think people can change sex? I'd laugh in their face at how dumb they are.

Pinkelephant66 · 03/12/2024 20:58

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 17:46

Oh OP, if it comes up again, do please ask him if he would have sex (or just say 'a relationship' if you are squeamish) with a transwoman.

Exactly this. I’m sure the answer would be no.

TempestTost · 03/12/2024 22:02

Pinkelephant66 · 03/12/2024 20:58

Exactly this. I’m sure the answer would be no.

I would not necessarily think this is safe to assume.\Men are not like women, and I think a fair number of men, if they met a transwoman they found sexually attractive, who looked feminine to them, would be happy enough to have a relationship.

So they are likely to answer a question like that by saying, sure, if she was attractive.

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 23:41

TempestTost · 03/12/2024 22:02

I would not necessarily think this is safe to assume.\Men are not like women, and I think a fair number of men, if they met a transwoman they found sexually attractive, who looked feminine to them, would be happy enough to have a relationship.

So they are likely to answer a question like that by saying, sure, if she was attractive.

Someone I used to know once said "all men need is a place".

I truly hope this is not so.

CervixSampler · 04/12/2024 06:27

I doubt many heterosexual men would date an intact TW, because they are heterosexual. And we know that most TW keep their male genitals.

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