Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

[BelaLugosisThread]

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

Do you find that you need to keep pushing the boundaries just that bit further in search of the pleasure, or whatever it is, you are seeking?

Not sure about that, I'll have to check. Different editions etc have different information.

archive.org/stream/TheJoyOfSex/The%20Joy%20of%20Sex_djvu.txt

Here's an archive version. There some bondage in it as to be expected but it warns off strangulation.

Nope, not seeking anything. I enjoy the pleasure I get from it. Like all sex, sometimes it's better, sometimes mind-blowing, sometimes just ok and enough. I'm willing to consider and try new things, and sometimes I like it, and sometimes I don't. I don't have a need to chase for more. I also say no to trying new things. I have a significant life outside of kink. This is just a tiny part of who I am and what I enjoy doing.

I recognise others may not think or feel the same way about kink that I do. And therein danger lies.

If we all thought the same we'd be boring.

I don't agree that sex informed by power and hierarchy can be intimate, but I found that out by doing. Also my experiences will be different to yours.

Genuinely think it's great you're engaging with different views.

About the chasing thing. Have to to say I don't think everyone goes down the chasing the dopamine high path. I know for me my interests were pretty constant. What did happen was my now ex got caught up in chasing the high. Nothing like having your orgasm ruined as your partner makes faffy adjustments! I kid you not it took my body months to recover from that, and for me to understand, after the fact, what was happening. To think we thought we'd removed the power exchange from what we were doing. We hadn't.

I do think sometimes BDSM and other things that turn sex into a practice (see tantra) are playing with energies we don't really respect or fully understand. Though some fields seem to have better values.

I encourage you to look into other practices especially from cultures that understand sex as a spiritual experience. Also things like body mapping, to ensure you stay connected in mind and body.

Please do keep engaging and prioritising your physical, emotional and mental safety. Good sexual intimacy at it's core, requires you to love yourself first and know your values and boundaries.

It's a shame that some people find it difficult to be open to others views and have such hard line prejudices, or are open or willing to be challenged on their views. There's been a lot of one side or the other in the early pages of this thread, which is really hard to engage with.

I understand that. You sound like you practise it ethically. But there are so many disturbing stories of boundaries crossed under a progressive guise, I think it's understandable people are a wary to give an inch, in case a mile ends up bring lost. I think there needs to be flexibility to hear people like you. Otherwise more risk being driven to the fringes. But I can understand why people are wary.

Sadly one kink agitator didn't help, especially with the personal attacks on people sharing their bad experiences. Check out the comments on the Spotify. It's full of kink brigaders who didn't listen to the cast! I don't think they're happy with the 'is it culty?' question. Probably because it's pretty damned culty!

The social media pile ons are common. I've known people with the wrong views get doxxed, get their business boycotted etc. I can understand why the interviewee used an alias.

There's no roadmap for a woman exploring her sexuality. Our culture is toxic n all.

I hope you've found the shared perspectives helpful. The only other public place you'll find a kink critical view is the Reddit antikink group. I found it a great help when I started having my doubts. I'm also working through a book called Sex Smart by Aline Zoldbrod. It's very good, so far.

Stay safe and listen to your body.

It's good to be discussed. In my view if its joyful, playful and sensual, it's fine. As soon as power and pain come in, it's not. If the Scene was a serious about ethics as @LaundryFondue is, they'd be engaging with the points raised in the cast. They are not. Anyone getting involved, or thinking about it, needs to know that. The mentality is "I'll do what I want" with the 'reasoning' retrofitted.

The risks are very real and disproportionately weighted to women. I've not known a single woman without sexual trauma who I was friends with during my time involved. I picked up a bit of second hand trauma hearing accounts of severe sexual abuse by their dom's/abusers! I was severely disconnected from my body when I finally left, and I was one of the supposedly empowered dominant women.

There's one woman who was rescued by the police and was treated as a victim of slavery (think this was in Wales). It might have been her choice to be treated like a slave, but it says it all that the police were having none of that! People on the fringes of the scene won't hear these stories. The scene tries to keep things in-house, and when the police get involved, hush it up so the newbies don't get put off.

I'm glad laundry fondue is experimenting within the relative safety of a relationship and isn't exploring solo. Wise woman too to be giving it such thought.

Those opinions are based on personal experiences, not prejudices.

Just going to leave this here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1h8ctz6/bdsm_was_used_as_a_point_of_abuse_for_me_but_i/

Possibly a bit rage baity for anyone who left the Kult and recognises this pattern of leaving a violent relationship to end up in a BDSM one. It's so sad. If anyone can archive it I'd appreciate it.

Content warning for domestic abuse and coersive control.

In 2012 Kitty Strycker posted a blog post called I Never Called it Rape about her experiences in the kink community.

"When I start to think of the number of times I have been cajoled, pressured, or forced into sex that I did not want when I came into “the BDSM community”, I can’t actually count them. And I never came out about it before, not publicly, for a variety of reasons- I blamed myself for not negotiating enough, or clearly, or for not sticking to my guns, or I didn’t want to be seen as being a drama queen or kicking up a fuss. Plus, the fact is, these things didn’t traumatize me, and I didn’t call it sexual assault or rape, because I felt ok afterwards. There was no trauma, no processing that I needed.
That makes me really angry, because I realized I didn’t feel traumatized because it happened so bloody often that it was just a fact of being a submissive female. WTF, right? I used to see on Alt.com and Bondage.com female submissives talking about predatory behaviour in the BDSM community, and I still see it on CollarMe and Fetlife. I remember being given the stage whisper not to play with this person or that one because they had a history of going too far, something that was often dismissed as “gossip” and kept on the DL to avoid that accusatory label of being overly dramatic. Being in the scene meant learning how to play politics- how to be polite, even good-natured, to people that you kept an eye on.
As I reflected on the number of times I’ve had fingers in my c.. that I hadn’t consented to, or been pressured into a situation where saying “no” was either not respected or not an option, or said that I did not want a certain kind of toy used on me which was then used, I’m kind of horrified."

https://www.slixa.com/blog/kink/safeward-i-never-called-it-rape/

Since then others have talked about the abuse in the kink scene, and at how anyone who speaks out is ostracised and attacked.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/beyond-safe-words-when-saying-no-in-bdsm-isnt-enough/

https://www.reddit.com/r/antikink/comments/ya5es4/does_anyone_else_just_feel_traumatised_by_kink/

This article Yes means Yes talks about abuse within the kink scene and has links to lots of articles where people talk about being abused.

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/23/theres-a-war-on-part-1-troubles-been-brewing/

You will still have some people arguing that abuse is rare in the kink community. The truth is people are afraid to speak out about abuse or just accept it as the way things are or do not even recognise the abuse such as sexual assault or rape.

I was interested in @Ladamesansmerci's post at the beginning of this thread. I'm a lesbian and when I was involved in the scene it was exclusively with women's groups - all of them very earnest, mostly ND, lots of workshops about consent. They really did seem to practise what they preached about discussions in advance and consent etc. It was a huge relief to me as an autistic lesbian coming from the "vanilla" world in which nothing was ever expressly discussed and the rules were all invisible - and which had led me into some incredibly difficult situations.

I then got into a relationship with a woman I met through the BDSM scene who was bisexual and she took me to a couple of mixed sex clubs. Nothing has ever put me off kink quicker. These are two wholly different experiences. For the avoidance of doubt my experience in the mixed sex clubs was that it was heaving with predators and that there were a LOT of women who had a variety of mental health issues and / or trauma, and who didn't see the red flags, and a LOT of men who were creepy as fuck and uninterested in consent other than as a buzzword.

I have very mixed reminiscences about the time I spent involved with the BDSM scene. On the one hand, I can absolutely agree that there are predators on the scene, that obvious wrong 'uns aren't dealt with terribly well, and that it is women who come off worst. On the other, the women's scene gave me a clear delineation of what consent looks like and how to do it well - without which I would probably still be encountering abusers.

What I would say, for anyone wondering if it's a cult, is this: can you say hand on heart that "there are predators [here], that obvious wrong 'uns aren't dealt with terribly well, and that it is women who come off worst" doesn't also apply to heterosexual dating apps?

The podcast concluded that it wasn't a cult but that cult like behaviours are very prevalent. You can't apply this to a dating app as it's not an organised group/set of events. Fear of speaking out and an us and them mind set are very cult like behaviours.

@PollyOttle the difference between the het BDSM scene and het dating apps is the lack of group dynamics.

It’s specifically that the group dynamic promotes and covers abuses from people who are considered ‘leaders’ (and their immediate friends and cronies) that makes the het BDSM scene culty.

Dating apps are intended to facilitate individual encounters, not create insular communities.
Obvs male predators are everywhere tho!

I was in an actual cult, from childhood. I’d rather not say which one, but no one would disagree it was a cult (except those in it, of course). It was massively damaging. I’ve name changed for this.

I’ve not been involved in any kink scene, although have known people who were. I’m aware I have some kinky tendencies.

ive read this thread with interest. Apologies that I haven’t yet listened to the podcast. Sometimes I need to take a break from cult stories.

As part if my recovery I’ve learned a lot about cults, not just my own. I thought I’d share what I recognise as cult-like from what I’ve read in this thread.

as has been said, no one thinks they are in a cult. ‘outsiders just won’t understand, but we know how special/right/important this is’ is part and parcel of being in a cult.

the feeling of superiority to outsiders. denigrating them as nillas/normies etc.

Newcomers not being exposed to the worst aspects of the group until or unless they are so heavily invested that it’s harder for them to leave. This is common. People join what seems like a lovely group with good values, only later see the darker sides.

Therapy from insiders only (kink affirming therapists). There were therapists in my cult, and I sought support for my problems. They were never going to tell the reason I was suffering was because I was being abused in a cult, and needed to leave. Their job was to keep me in the group, not to help me. Bear in mind the therapists/counsellors/pastors are also indoctrinated and don’t realise that is their role. This happens in various groups,

information control - eg most people in the group aren’t aware of an incident where the police got involved. Dealing with issues from within the group, behind closed doors.

if you want to leave, you lose your community and your friends. That seems to apply here.

All cults have their own language. It helps the in group/out group feeling. It makes it harder to talk to anyone outside the group about your experiences. It increases the distance between you and your former friends/acquaintances, and strengthens your ties to those within the group.

Sexuality in cults is usually either highly restricted, eg celibacy or arranged marriages, or the opposite, so called ‘free love’ lots of different partners, orgies etc. Surprisingly both serve a similar function, to prevent pair bonding and true intimacy. The cult doesn’t want you to have a loving connection to someone that might become more important than your connection and service to, the group. They don’t want you loyal to any one other than the group or leader. I wonder whether this is a factor at play in kink culture.

things I’m not sure about that are usually considered part of a real cult are: a charismatic leader, and a transcendent belief system.

id be interested to hear whether anyone who has been involved in these scenes recognises the recognises any transcendent belief systems as part of it.

The charismatic leader - could be several people scattered across the scene, including individual groups, certainly I've known several Neil Gaiman type men who have a scene around them.

The transcendent part is the elevated pain and supposedly elevated superiority as the ultimate vessel of abuse or priest/priestess (dom) enabling the abuse. There's definitely ritual aspects to this. I mentioned Clive Barker and Hellraiser earlier, not really as a joke. There's definitely a part of this which is about reaching some ultimate place of horror where pain becomes pleasure becomes torture becomes "what sights we have to show you."

The BDSM scene even steals transcendent practices (appropriates?) from other cultures (see the book ‘Modern Primitives’ for examples of some of the crossovers).

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Primitives_(book)

I got six minutes in and got bored. Mostly with the interviewers tbf.

I spent quite a bit of time on the lesbian BDSM scene in two different and very difficult periods of my life. I wish I'd realised back then that the 'difficult period of my life' warranted my full and loving attention, and the messy work of self-responsibility, not an escape into oblivion. The things you'd tell your younger self, eh?

My relationship with kink was a bit like my relationship with alcohol. Profoundly damaging to myself...and to people I love. But I thought it was me - that I was just not doing it right. It's harmless right? I can control this. Just a bit of fun. What's the problem?

It was only with the passing of sufficient time and a tonne of therapy that I could see with the benefit of perspective how nihilistic this was (for me). I was searching for something missing in my life, but in all the wrong places.

Connection. Being seen. Being loved for who I am and being able to be honest about those darker ouchy bits and still know I am loved.

I'm not going to say that kink is inherently bad. Who am I to say that? I can only say what's right for me. I'd even agree with some of the contributors to this thread that at least in the kink scene, people are having conversations about boundaries, bodies, pleasure, desire, and triggers.

However, I do also recognise some of the really dark stuff that the OP references in the Podcast. I can't speak for the heterosexual kink scene, but even in the lesbian and (I hate this word, sorry)...queer scene, there is some seriously worrying stuff that imo probably requires exploration through therapy instead of in the Dungeon. Age play anybody? Consensual non-consent (CNC), and what used to be called 'orange hankie' stuff (anything goes). Rape scenes? Heavy beatings? Quite severe physical trauma, e.g. objectively hurting each other and calling it 'pleasure'.

...and god, the insufferable 'we are so cool' 'tude - being openly disparaging of 'vanillas' - the people who don't need needles through their tits or to wear a Muir cap to have an orgasm. Oh and the 'who's the most masochistic/hardcore of them all?' vibe that is never acknowledged by lesbians. The tedious unspoken competitive stuff. So tiresome. And yet it's all really potent. I got sucked into that one-upmanship too. Dungeon play is performative.

With all that said, I don't have a problem with consenting adults engaging in 'risk-aware consensual kink' in private or in play parties (or 'safe, sane and consensual' BDSM as it was when I first got started).

What I do have a problem with is this stuff paraded around at Pride in front of kids, brought to the workplace in the form of BDSM staff networks (yes really ), and the bizarre prevailing idea that anybody else wants you to bring your whole self to work. No, trust me, we really don't need to see your Sam Browne harness in the office or know that you're wearing a butt plug right now.

I think we can be accepting of the sexual turn-ons of sane adults doing their thing in private, and we should not shame them. But I think normalising kink as an expected part of sexual expression is a bridge too far. Ditto putting it on display in public life, teaching it as a normal thing in our children's educational curriculum, or in the workplace is profoundly alarming. Keep it to yourself, and for gods' sake go to a workshop before you try to fist anybody.

Glad I got over myself. You can keep the thorns, I'll take the hearts and flowers.

Whereas I thought it sounded like either Torture Garden or The Hoist.

Name your 'studies.'
I've got an academic journal article coming out soon on the use of female-dominant BDSM techniques in the pagan/sacred kink scene, so I'm genuinely interested.

I think that unless you can provide citations, your kink shamers are just scared their partners will want kink elsewhere narrative is a massive projection. I'm sure some people are scared of kink (and judging by this thread, that would perhaps be sensible). Others are perhaps worried that they will lose a partner to it. I've been the one who was once lost to it, so I have skin in that game.

However, what I am mostly seeing on this thread is not 'kink shaming' but instead a growing sense of alarm, mainly rooted in second-wave feminist thought, that expressing very valid and genuine concerns about the normalisation of 'kink' is rapidly becoming the third rail.