Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

[BelaLugosisThread]

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

@ByGentleFatball the guest on the podcast is a dominant woman.

Then again, I guess you know that. As you personally know her

She isn't the bogey man. She's just a woman with attachment issues and poor judgement who lacks the insight to accurately reflect on her experiences. Nothing special or new.

If you're aiming to make the kinks scenes sound less like a cult, might I suggest that this:
"That's why it's best we sort our own problems and hold our own discussions. Which we do. It's just when someone has been expelled from the community, they're no longer welcome to speak on such platforms."
is possibly not the way to go about it?
An insular community, living only by its own rules, expelling and then ignoring people who disagree - what could possibly go wrong?

I didn't say she isn't. I said people outside kink don't consider dominant women.

And actually she's a dominant leaning switch if you want to be totally accurate. She will switch for some play.

If we consider someone to be unstable or dangerous from their actions, then no, they won't be offered a platform to discuss their views. That's sensible.

So lets get this straight - its a community that talks a lot about consent - far more than vanilla couples - but has no way of identifying and refusing entry to unstable individuals or CSA survivors who shouldn't be there in the first place?

WTF? I'm reading this take down on the feminist board?!

I came here wanting to discuss the feminist issues raised in this podcast. I wasn't sure if I agreed that the kink scene was a cult. It raised some interesting points.

Alas the poster above and the pile on in the comments makes me think perhaps it is more a Cult than I credited it as being!

There is nothing wrong with vanilla sex - which is generally enjoyable for both parties. And people who go in for vanilla sex (sounds like an insult btw) also do other more adventurous things: dress up, sex in odd places etc., which require consent.
Coercion is a point of view, btw - and can be recognised later rather than at the time.

But I've already said, in the post you're quoting, that I dont assume all women are submissive and all men are dominant. You're maybe being a bit sealiony?

Who is the 'we' here? How is the community consulted? Who decides that someone should be 'expelled' from the community? How is the expulsion carried out? Genuine questions btw

Crikey I missed that bit! Good post

What could go wrong indeed? Sounds like the scene prides itself on ostracising the bad 'uns. Wonder if this ever entails involving relevant authorities? Doesn't sound like it

Whenever you talk about a cult, people in the cult are going to tell you there is no cult. It's kind of how we can identify a cult.

Absolutely! Well said
The patterns of in/ out group has been painstakingly demonstrated in this thread alone!

"Vanilla people don't talk about consent"
"Vanilla people don't consider some women might be dominant"

lol

I listened to the podcast and in this part 1 you get a sense of her general experience of the scene and some dodgy dynamics it attracts, but I didn't come away thinking it was necessarily culty— though maybe she goes into it a bit more in part 2?

I haven't yet, but your post seems to imply that the whole UK kink scene is abusive and facilitates paedophilia and I wanted to refute that. Apologies if you weren't trying to suggest that, but it's how it came over.

Obviously this woman has had an awful experience of the worst part of it, but the whole scene shouldn't be written off on that account. People easily assume that if someone is kinky they will tolerate or even been turned on by anything and everything no matter how repugnant, but that is not how it works!

@Echobelly thanks for reply. The podcast does contain nuance and analysis whereas I've tried to sum up the worst of what it alleges in a few lines. Sorry if that appears v sweeping. Is definitely worth a listen. It certainly isn't saying anything about private sexual/ kink activities but how the more extreme/fringe parts of the scene have become more prevalent. She cites the various communities of littles, adult babies and wearing nappies. Is that something you've encountered?

I guess dabbling with deviance is always going throw up things others are uncomfortable with. But the jist of this podcast was that having a community of people playing out their interests in public and egging each other on is inherently unhealthy. Where is the line in calling stuff out if the culture is "your kink is not my kink but that's ok"?

Just listening to the second part and I think she hits the nail on the head when she says of some relationships she'd seen, "Even though it's consensual, you're still in a relationship with someone who finds abusing their partner attractive".

Although I know a bunch of people into BDSM, this is the aspect that never sat well with me. Not saying they're all like this, but if your guy likes to beat up women, maybe building a scene around giving him the cover for that isn't a great idea. Feel like a square saying it, but domination and sadism aren't good character traits for healthy relationships.

Alas the poster above and the pile on in the comments makes me think perhaps it is more a Cult than I credited it as being!

I think that's why most women avoid these threads, OP. They are always an exercise in handwaving away abuse.

Although I know a bunch of people into BDSM, this is the aspect that never sat well with me. Not saying they're all like this, but if your guy likes to beat up women, maybe building a scene around giving him the cover for that isn't a great idea. Feel like a square saying it, but domination and sadism aren't good character traits for healthy relationships.

Sadism only with fully informed consent in a loving relationship, or respectful casual encounters, with mutual benefit is unlikely to fully satisfy a true sadist. That's the elephant in the room.

Yes I had similar response. Generally think of cults as restrictive communes. Is it reductive to start labelling subcultures as cults? I think the podcast does a good job of highlighting cult-like patterns. Which is an interesting point to start questioning aspects of the kink community. There's parallels with the way issues around gender have been discussed as a cult.

I'm wondering whether the display of openness and discussions about consent can operate as a way for abusers to more successfully game the narrative.

Superficial discussions of specific boundaries and limits may distract from larger issues.

Certainly there are creeps and abusers within the BDSM scene. Perhaps not more than in the general populace.

As for cult? Group behaviours often display similar behaviours as cults, but the definition of cult is usually more specific. Charismatic leader, generally involving money making, brainwashing, etc.

In my misspent youth I was a regular patron at a famous BDSM club in London. I don't know about cult but it is absolutely not a healthy scene. My stated boundaries were crossed all the time, although as an abuse survivor I put up with it because I thought I wasn't worth enough to insist on my boundaries - many years have passed now and I've had lots of therapy, and would not be part of that scene again.

My experience is that as a scene it's ripe for manipulation by predatory men. Under the cover of 'sex positivity' and open-mindedness' they can trample over women's boundaries and get their kicks without the consequences they would get in 'normal' life. And also there's a strong insistence on 'sorting out our problems indoors' ie sorting out issues/complaints within the community and not via the law, because outsiders 'wouldn't understand'. This tactic is common also in some cults so I can see why the analogy was made.

In my experience, kink sounds lovely and progressive and mutually respectful on the surface but is actually a cover for predatory men. Polyamory is similar.