Sam Harris

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

Wow! Sam Harris’ latest podcast called The Reckoning.

Right out of the gate, only a few minutes in he is blaming the Democrat defeat at the doors of those who swallowed the TRA movement and pushed it repeatedly.

I was going to quote it but he’s talking about it for so long (women’s sports, social conditioning etc)

it’s worth a listen. He’s considered to be neutral, intelligent, left leaning and very well respected

www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/391-the-reckoning

Well, the strategy was, as I understand it, harnessing the tiger of traditional conservatism by focusing on the paternalism of protecting children and some women, and then getting them to enact laws that protect women's rights.

It's going to be quite an interesting task to get them to do that, and given that the primary focus of the Conservative populism that has just swept the board in the US is on women who do not comply with gendered expectations, I think the focus on mocking men in dresses is a choice that might not bear fruit.

But tbh, I think the generation of Tate-influenced men now cheerfully telling women 'your body, my choice' was always by far the more concerning demographic.

Women can’t be forced back into the kitchen because most men can’t buy houses on one income anymore 🤷‍♀️

I do find it fascinating how much men are centred on MN. I didn't specify gender non conforming men, and yet that's the defensive canard tossed at me for merely pointing out, as a terfy left winger, that our chickens are about to come home to roost and that backlash against LGBT that a few people were concerned about is swinging in, and that it's probably time, if you're concerned about that, to underline that you support JKR's liberal-minded tweet.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5207418-i-didnt-leave-the-left-the-left-left-me?page=1

Well we're going to see if they do it now.

LGB now have all their rights? No one is suggsting taking those away.

And if you are worried about gender non conforming women, not he men, I'm still not sure what the worry is? There's no hint of legislation to restrict this.

Culturally there is a movement back to celebrating traditional roles with the trad wife stuff, but it's obviously optional.

If anything I think a positive outcome is more likley to be an accpetance of a wider varity of choices for women, Crack on with your trad wife stuff or live in a feminist commune. The state doesn't care. As long as everyone has equal rights.

If what you are seeking though is a society where trad wife types have diappeared and everyone wears unisex clothing, I think you'll be disapointed. And it sounds shit.

I think what the liberals might have to learn from all this is that tolerance goes both ways: liberals tolerate conservative views and lifetysles and vice versa but we all have rights in law.

I may be totally misunderstinding what your worry is as you don't actually say beyond the vague worry, but like I said let's get the rights stuff done before we argue culture anyeway.
I'm OK with disagreeing on culture, I'm not OK with women's rights being unedrmined.

It isn't just due to the voters who swung to Trump, it's also down to the voters who stayed at home.
There are many people who would usually vote Democrat, (men and women) who would not vote for Trump but couldn't bring themselves to vote for the so called 'progressive' nonsense the Democrats were pushing, so they just stayed home.

What usually happens is women end up doing 'the double shift' - i.e. going out to work full time then rushing home to cook, then spending the evening cleaning.

Wrt LGB rights, you missed the Conservative stacked supreme court, Clarence Thomas being open to re-examining the ruling on equal marriage and Trump indicating that was also up for that? Yes, people are most assuredly talking about taking those away.

Which can be handwaved away of course, but that particular response didn't go so well for Roe. And before anyone says it, yes, it happened under a democrat administration- via a court stacked conservative during the first Trump term. That's how it works in the US.

This isn't about a binary choice of tradwife or feminist commune. I'm a gnc married lesbian who has watched intolerance spike in the past 5 years. And I'll watch the responses to my posts eventually just boil down to 'Blame the TRAs'. A big part of why I even started being connected to terfery in the first place was because I thought it was about rejecting gendered restrictions and was assured that hands across the aisle stuff with conservatives was simply pragmatism for a specific end.
I posted to say that the frankly terrifying ascendancy of the Conservatives in the US is an important moment to put clear water between those who have a broadminded perspective and those traditional conservatives who are bizarrely termed gender critical. Given that you've talked about 'disagreements' it seems quite in keeping to do so.

That video feels like the story of my life 😏 watching this happen to GC women on a mass scale with the Lefty bros this week isn’t as much of a surprise to me as I thought it would be 🤷‍♀️

AGP has killed off the idea of a middle ground for me. I am unwilling to go along with anything AGPs want because I’ve learned (from listening to them) that they do not have the safety, rights or dignity of women in mind at any stage.

Trump has never indicated any policy plans on changes to gay marriage laws. He doesn't give a toss about gay marriage. Even if he did he wouldn't do it because it would lose them the elections and the party wouldn't support it. You are scaremongering on something no one is remotely intending. Why? Can't we stick to the actual legal issues currently threatening women and children?

You don't say what intolerance you're expereincing?

Personally I do have less tolerance than I used to for rainbow lanyards, pride parades and anything alphabet soup related. It might be that? Or maybe you are mistaken for a man in women's spaces? Which I presume is very rare but you might be the rarity?
If it's refusal for services jobs etc you should take legal action because you have rights.

I think there is a confusion on the left between rights and celebration. Some seem to have thought getting the rights meant everyone now had to celebrate the lifestyle and say it was great and wonderful and that saying anything different should now be illegal. I come across this a lot with young people actually, who think having a religious view of homosexuality is, or should be, illegal.

Maybe that's the thing that needs to be addressed aftre all this is over: you can think trad wives are loons and you can even say so if you want, and they can think the same of you. You probably won't be friends but you can't legally discrimate whatever your views.

I think a lot of left wing LGBT people think this is unacceptable (but you can call the trad wives loons it's a one way thing).

This is why I think this has always been a free speech issue above all else.

Imo, it's rather unlikely that the US constitution, in its original meaning, ever intended to protect gay marriage. A lot of liberals aren't going to care about that and just care about their side winning.

Well OK, but then they can't complain about (very questionable) biased decisions coming from the Supreme Court if it ends up even more packed with conservative judges.

I think a lot of left wing LGBT people think this is unacceptable (but you can call the trad wives loons it's a one way thing).

Just quoting myself @TimTimButtons to say I didn't mean you in this, just some left wing LGBT people in genral.

Also although I'm making points I think are broadly true, I've reflected that I'm being a bit of a dick when you were only trying to raise a potential concern.

I don't think removing LGB rights is at all likely, but I am sorry if you feel worried and have experienced increased intolerance.

I was just watching a video of this judge skewering a man on his hideous views of abortion

but then she said:

”I can’t think of anyone else, other than pregnant people, who are denied care under the law”.

As long as we don’t call them women.

Following this with interest, must say that it's very worrisome that the recent left-leaning catchphrase of 'free speech but not free from consequences', is everywhere which should be ironic, but clearly isn't, because the free part should be crucial and yet being completely ignored, it feels very Orwellian. I'm left leaning, and until several years ago, voted green. Now politically homeless.

In the UK at least, it seems due diligence is an after thought, institutions are so afraid to be ostracized and labelled that they'll act first and avoid thinking later if they can help it, even to the detriment of their own cause. Think of all the charities and organisations who have had a key role here and who went unchecked despite pushing harmful ideas. Look at what is happening with the Cass report. We never learn. Yes, it feels like things are moving, but very painfully and still not very coherent. The age old saying of the left eat their own seems truer than ever. If any issues have been stirred towards the LGBT community, the cause is from the organisations claiming to represent them and not GC women.

Not conforming to sex stereotypes should be fine, but if a man puts on a dress and a wig and claims that makes him a woman, the appropriate response is mockery.

What are the sex stereotypes that conservatives are supposedly wanting to employ?

Tbh, in my experience conservatives are most often pretty blase about things like women in traditionally male sports, women who don't wear make up, women who are welders, etc.

And an awful lot of liberals are desperate to make sure their girls aren't into Disney princesses while desperately encouraging it from their boys.

'Conservatives' are no more homogenous than 'the left'.

Some 'conservatives' are libertarian.

It's more the religious 'conservatives' who take their sexual morality and ideas about equality (or lack thereof) from selected parts of their various texts who are the problem - 'surrendered wives' as an example, obviously the anti abortion and homophobic strands etc.

@MalagaNights "I think there is a confusion on the left between rights and celebration. Some seem to have thought getting the rights meant everyone now had to celebrate the lifestyle and say it was great and wonderful and that saying anything different should now be illegal."
I also think that left wing people (and I'd include myself in this) think it's a very good thing to teach all primary school children that all different sorts of families are to be celebrated. And so we assume that right wing people want to teach children that only a certain type of family is good. That might be true in Hungary or Russia, but it's not true in the USA. There are very few big government conservatives there.

I also think those horrible "Your body my choice" t shirts are the best thing that could happen for women's reproductive freedoms in red states. There are lots of conservative women who will be pushed in the opposite direction by that display of male agression.

Matt Walsh has already taken all the credit on Twitter. 🙄

This.

The Supreme Court was used to force decisions that would never have passed the electorate at the time (eg abortion in the 70s, gay marriage a decade ago). So they’ve only themselves to blame by using courts to force decisions like this. It was never the intention to use the SC to bypass the electorate but that’s what ended up happening

There was no strategy to "harness the tiger of traditional conservatism" to defeat genderism. It was just that the traditional left's betrayal of women and abdication of responsibility for children and vulnerable adults, their absence from the field of battle, or active and determined pursuit of the genderists' agenda was always going to leave a gap for anyone with a grasp on reality. Conservatives merely filled that gap.

It could have gone the other way just as easily. In the US, some people on the right believe firmly that gender is innate and homosexuality is wrong and punish homosexuals and GNC children, as genderists do.

Operation Let Them Speak works on so many levels.

I think that's roughly how it goes in my brain too! I can see why people found it hard to vote for the Democrats for different reasons. I can also struggle to understand how someone can vote for Trump, I just cannot stand him.

And yet, here he is with a very clear mandate and no need to start a civil war to get in the WH

I agree and that that the live and let live view is much more prevalent in the USA.

I've come to think schools shouldn't be 'celebrating' anyone's private relationships, they should be teaching facts and skills.

If you want a particular value system taught to your children that's your responsibility.

I would also support greater school choice with different types of schools for different parents. So you can choose a religious school if you want, or you can choose a school which encourages boys to wear dresses and that free expression is essential to your wellbeing if you want.

We can have opinions about others choices but we can't discriminate against them for it.

Tolerance, not celebration, is the collective value of a cohesive society.

The left are actually less tolerant of conservative lifestyle choices than vice versa. You can see on on this thread. Surrendered wives are a 'threat' rather than a different choice you find bizarre.

The right on the other hand sees the 4B movement for example as loony and not the road to happiness but they're not worried about it being dangerous.

The liberal project forgot the aim was diversity of lifestyle and choice and instead believed everyone had to view their opinions and choices as good.

I think we're at the beginning of a reset of that.

The trans stuff is the most obvious example which needs sorting but these other 'fears' that conservatives still have the wrong views on other topics is part of the same phenomenon.