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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
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35
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 00:54

Anti-gender propaganda on Twitter/Facebook/Reddit

Where is the "anti gender propaganda" (bias much!) on Reddit then? Reddit is strongly pro TRA.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:56

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 10:27

@EyeofOrion is not calling us bots (I don't think). They are saying don't underestimate the impact of bots and troll farms in fanning and feeding outrage, moving the Overton window, or to be more accurate splitting the Overton window in two and moving them apart, to inflame anger and division and encourage self-harming politics. The school litter tray for example.

We know this. We saw it with Brexit.

What I'd like from Eye as an expert in the area is practical advice. Because regardless of whether the person hitting you is doing it because they decided to do so off their own bar or because someone convinced them you are an evil threat, you'll still get hit so you still need to defend yourself.

It's interesting the comment that there are fewer left wing troll farms. (Also surprising that troll farms have a side t all rather than just going for whatever message leads to disruption)

I wonder if it's because the Left, being inherently progress principles driven, tend to amplify and fire themselves up anyway (ie "these vulnerable people are under threat and we must protect them! Everyone who disagrees with me is an actual Nazi and must be destroyed!") while the Right, being inherently conservative, needs to feel a much more direct threat to themselves to motivate?

It’s difficult to know what to do on a practical, everyday level other than have a level of awareness of the purpose of a particular message of article. What is its source? Where is it hosted? Is a user you know personally, or not? If it is Twitter, what is the rest of the user’s feed like? How long have they been an active user? (If it’s less than a year, with little or no posts, it’s more than likely to be a bot posting from a trollfarm.)

Some Twitter and Reddit user actively engage with bots to test them, and they turn out to be AI. They attempt to answer simple questions, but cannot. (I don’t recommend this.)

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:59

Enough4me · 14/11/2024 00:44

@EyeofOrion it will only be women left - so potentially half the population then?

Try reading again.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 01:00

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 00:54

Anti-gender propaganda on Twitter/Facebook/Reddit

Where is the "anti gender propaganda" (bias much!) on Reddit then? Reddit is strongly pro TRA.

TBH, you have plenty of bias too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 01:01

@EyeofOrion do you think the Democrats need an honest conversation about gender identity, or do you think they will be better served by blaming their loss entirely on bots? Let's have it clear.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 01:04

TBH, you have plenty of bias too.

Care to actually address the point of my comment?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 01:06

Where is the anti gender propaganda on Reddit?

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:18

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:35

Flirts summary is correct.

I also said earlier I am NOT dismissing the influence of women, so please stop repeatedly making this claim. Women are at the heart of this movement, and once the trollfarms and bots abandon the cause - and some already have now Trump is elected - it will be only women left.

Relying on alorithmic results isn’t always the best - the algorithm will spin you further and further down into a quite narrow, tailored band of results. I’m sure you know this, though.

To reiterate, I am not calling anyone on this board a bot.

You may think you are not dismissing women, and that may not be your intention, but your posts do dismiss women and their efforts. Maybe that is what you don’t understand and haven’t understood all along.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:36

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:08

You could have just written, “I don’t quite understand you” instead of wasting everyone’s time with that. I did enjoy the repetition of “And this is not a left wing/right wing issue” though so top marks.

If you don’t think there’s anything in it, why spend so much time on super-long posts arguing against it? That’s odd to me.

Because last time I specifically asked you to clarify, all I got was a snide remark, not unlike this one. And so … around we go again.

And did you read the bits where I agreed that yes there are troll farms? but that your position dismissed the true efforts of women? You have yet to produce the detail and the examples that don’t dismiss women’s efforts. Because I cannot see the degree of the effect that you keep asserting it is happening compared to the degree of the effort that women have put in. Nor do I see everyday people who vote being influenced the way you keep asserting.

I can only now take it that your actions are supposed to be illustrative of how trolls operate. Thanks, but I have had enough experience with trolls to understand how they operate.

And you miss the fact that I also know there are people interacting with my post that are not commenting on the thread. I don’t consider the post any waste of my time, but thanks anyway.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:47

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:56

It’s difficult to know what to do on a practical, everyday level other than have a level of awareness of the purpose of a particular message of article. What is its source? Where is it hosted? Is a user you know personally, or not? If it is Twitter, what is the rest of the user’s feed like? How long have they been an active user? (If it’s less than a year, with little or no posts, it’s more than likely to be a bot posting from a trollfarm.)

Some Twitter and Reddit user actively engage with bots to test them, and they turn out to be AI. They attempt to answer simple questions, but cannot. (I don’t recommend this.)

Great! That is the advice many of us have written for years here.

Of course, it is a good reminder of the content and pattern of behaviour produced by troll farms.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 01:04

TBH, you have plenty of bias too.

Care to actually address the point of my comment?

That would defeat the purpose of the exercise.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:53

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:08

You could have just written, “I don’t quite understand you” instead of wasting everyone’s time with that. I did enjoy the repetition of “And this is not a left wing/right wing issue” though so top marks.

If you don’t think there’s anything in it, why spend so much time on super-long posts arguing against it? That’s odd to me.

And hey, thanks for promoting my post by the way.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 03:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 01:01

@EyeofOrion do you think the Democrats need an honest conversation about gender identity, or do you think they will be better served by blaming their loss entirely on bots? Let's have it clear.

Yes, of course I do. They’re not entirely blameless, but equally, stacking the blame entirely on them is disingenuous.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 04:08

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:36

Because last time I specifically asked you to clarify, all I got was a snide remark, not unlike this one. And so … around we go again.

And did you read the bits where I agreed that yes there are troll farms? but that your position dismissed the true efforts of women? You have yet to produce the detail and the examples that don’t dismiss women’s efforts. Because I cannot see the degree of the effect that you keep asserting it is happening compared to the degree of the effort that women have put in. Nor do I see everyday people who vote being influenced the way you keep asserting.

I can only now take it that your actions are supposed to be illustrative of how trolls operate. Thanks, but I have had enough experience with trolls to understand how they operate.

And you miss the fact that I also know there are people interacting with my post that are not commenting on the thread. I don’t consider the post any waste of my time, but thanks anyway.

Your posts are always combative. It’s fine to disagree, but I didn’t have any sense you were willing to take on information at any level. Ainsi, I have little interest in engaging with you.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 04:11

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 02:47

Great! That is the advice many of us have written for years here.

Of course, it is a good reminder of the content and pattern of behaviour produced by troll farms.

Really? I’ve never read it here, and been here for a few years now.

Additionally, if that were so, we wouldn’t have threads like this.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 04:13

@Helleofabore

And you miss the fact that I also know there are people interacting with my post that are not commenting on the thread. I don’t consider the post any waste of my time, but thanks anyway.

Why would I miss that? The same thing is happening with my posts.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 07:48

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 04:11

Really? I’ve never read it here, and been here for a few years now.

Additionally, if that were so, we wouldn’t have threads like this.

Well gosh! Maybe you have read as widely on FWR as you think you have.

Either way, your posts about bots having such significant influence over the voting decisions of the electorate within the USA seems to directly reflect your need to minimise the importance of the impacts of gender identity politics on the electorate. And minimises just how many people are directly impacted by gender identity by now. As you say ‘on a population basis, they are statistically tiny’, without acknowledging the disproportionate direct impact that ‘tiny’ population has had.

It also seems from this

stacking the blame entirely on them is disingenuous.

that you need there to be significant bot activity because you don’t seem to like the fact that the strategies of Democratic Party around this issue have already proven harmful to female people and children during their term in power. And that their strategies going forward simply didn’t provide confidence to those in their party who had concerns.

Instead, we have these posts about bots to deflect the responsibility of the poor election strategies used by the party.

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 07:51

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 04:13

@Helleofabore

And you miss the fact that I also know there are people interacting with my post that are not commenting on the thread. I don’t consider the post any waste of my time, but thanks anyway.

Why would I miss that? The same thing is happening with my posts.

Isn’t it excellent!

So, no need for you to worry about me posting longs posts that you, personally, can’t be bothered to engage with.

CautiousLurker1 · 14/11/2024 07:56

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:08

You could have just written, “I don’t quite understand you” instead of wasting everyone’s time with that. I did enjoy the repetition of “And this is not a left wing/right wing issue” though so top marks.

If you don’t think there’s anything in it, why spend so much time on super-long posts arguing against it? That’s odd to me.

So replies like this are a huge part of the problem. You are effectively saying ‘shut up’ and dismissing a woman when she speaks, yet again, because you do not agree with what she is saying or the tone she is using?

Many of us have engaged with and value the content of this post - but you have effectively read it, decided it is not worthy and thus decreed that no-one else really needs to read it because it was ’super long’ and a ‘wasting everyone’s time’? It’s fine to say that you didn’t get anything out of it but the rankly offensive dismissiveness of the words and experience of another poster is no different to the comments already above in the vain of ‘bet you don’t even know trans people’ or ‘your personal experience is irrelevant’.

Do you not see how misogynistic that is (towards both writer and readers here)?

IdylicDay · 14/11/2024 08:09

@EyeofOrion , Helleofabore is well-known on FWR as being a passionate person who writes long erudite posts, so many of us have saved her posts for use elsewhere because she is one of the most intelligent posters who really takes time and effort to outline her points, often with numerous sources. You could have just saved your own time and said you're too lazy to read anything past a short paragraph and are not that earnest or engaged in this topic and are only using it to troll and upset posters.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 08:10

that you need there to be significant bot activity because you don’t seem to like the fact that the strategies of Democratic Party around this issue have already proven harmful to female people and children during their term in power. And that their strategies going forward simply didn’t provide confidence to those in their party who had concerns.

Instead, we have these posts about bots to deflect the responsibility of the poor election strategies used by the party.

Yes, exactly.

IdylicDay · 14/11/2024 08:12

I also think this cooker/nutter conspiracy theory about 'bots' is simply a version of the far right US conservative's 'deep state' argument. The only place I ever hear about 'bots' are by the ones accusing people of using them. I never once come across them or even the word anywhere, ever, anywhere on social media or forums, unless by conspiracist nutters accusing people of using them.

I think its just another way to DISMISS the validity and intensity of the feeling of women, and invalidate us as just being 'bots'. Clearly you still haven't learned from the US elections. And won't learn at all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2024 08:12

Yes, of course I do. They’re not entirely blameless, but equally, stacking the blame entirely on them is disingenuous.

It's actually their problem though, and it's their actions being highlighted, so whatever the issue with bots, the blame is indeed theirs.

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/11/2024 08:15

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:08

You could have just written, “I don’t quite understand you” instead of wasting everyone’s time with that. I did enjoy the repetition of “And this is not a left wing/right wing issue” though so top marks.

If you don’t think there’s anything in it, why spend so much time on super-long posts arguing against it? That’s odd to me.

There is a history of people employing well thought through and thoroughly explained thinking on this board. Not only does this practice make clear your line of thought, but it also helps in furthering, and promoting, logical analysis.

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/11/2024 08:22

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:35

Flirts summary is correct.

I also said earlier I am NOT dismissing the influence of women, so please stop repeatedly making this claim. Women are at the heart of this movement, and once the trollfarms and bots abandon the cause - and some already have now Trump is elected - it will be only women left.

Relying on alorithmic results isn’t always the best - the algorithm will spin you further and further down into a quite narrow, tailored band of results. I’m sure you know this, though.

To reiterate, I am not calling anyone on this board a bot.

I don't own a mobile phone/smart phone and i don't use social media ( just a special interest forum).......which is the prerequisite, I imagine, for being targeted by bots?

I first woke up to the issue as a result of an article in a local newspaper, in which women placing a sticker on one of Anthony Gormley's 'Iron men' on a local beach - were targeted by the city's mayor for a 'hate crime'. I couldn't believe what i was reading........I hadn't really come across the issue before. I'd left teaching a few years before...and 'trans' was just not a thing......nobody had heard of it.

I think social media is as much responsible for the rise in 'trans' as it is for those opposing it - probably far more so, in fact.

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