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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 17:53

Datun · 13/11/2024 16:59

How can your friend be a nice person, if they know full well that accessing women's toilets is making the women and girls in there uncomfortable?

They are already violating women's boundaries without a backwards glance.

Never mind not being able to face the world as a male, your friend is behaving like a stereotypical male! Assuming that women are just a resource to validate their internal self image.

There is absolutely zero evidence that cross dressing men face danger in the men's toilets.

It's only unthinkable in their head, presumably because they might suffer some internal discomfort!

And there you are cheering it on. For fuck sake, can you drag yourself off accommodating the male sex, for one tiny fucking second, and focus on the women whose boundaries they are tramping all over.

Because they are ‘nice’ to Maddy!

That they are not nice to the female people who need to not have that male person ever in the female single sex space, well who gives a fuck, eh?

WhatterySquash · 13/11/2024 17:58

I also think Maddy it's a good idea to think through what's going on, maybe at a subconscious level, when you think "my friend wants to be in women's spaces, yes the poor thing must have that, or else friend might be unhappy!" and yet at the same time be able to think "women want to be in their own spaces without males there for reasons of safety, dignity and privacy - no, they can't have that!" Why is that? Is it maybe because we're all trained from birth at a subliminal level to put males first, and you do see this person as male really? Or maybe it's the more recent brainwashing that tells us that all trans people are poor, oppressed, marginalised victims (despite a LOT of evidence to the contrary) who would never harm a soul and must be prioritised?

Either way, it's good to be aware of where these thought processes come from and question them.

GailBlancheViola · 13/11/2024 17:59

There appear to be so many women who quite genuinely think it's completely normal to prioritise men over women.

There do, you expect it from men, as demonstrated so clearly by Maddy's friend, but women not only doing the same but enabling the men to do so, and their thoughts on the women impacted by this? Nah! fuck them.

There is a special circle in hell set aside for women who do this.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:01

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 17:53

Because they are ‘nice’ to Maddy!

That they are not nice to the female people who need to not have that male person ever in the female single sex space, well who gives a fuck, eh?

The performative element of all this for self interest is never lost on me in terms of jumping on the bandwagon....

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 18:04

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:01

The performative element of all this for self interest is never lost on me in terms of jumping on the bandwagon....

The disconnected thinking when some people cannot logically think through the issues is always eye opening. Particularly posters who have a habit of attempting to shame women for not wanting male people in female single sex spaces.

GailBlancheViola · 13/11/2024 18:05

So this is yet another "Not My Nigel" argument.

Other women aren't validation tools for your friend's inner identity. It is not our job to look after your friend and put our own needs and rights aside to do so. That's a patriarchal, misogynist idea of what womens' role in life is. Nor are we human shields. Our single sex spaces exist, for us, to protect us from males, for very good reason, to do with males, and you should note that there is ZERO evidence that "trans women" are ANY different from other men with regard to the reasons why women had to have single sex spaces (in fact, there's quite a bit of evidence showing the opposite). Do you understand what those reasons were and why it was such a fight to gain them in decades past?

Many males are lovely, but somehow manage not to demand entry into our spaces, generally situations when we are vulnerable or undressed. We don't make exceptions for "nice" males; that's safeguarding. And if your friend is insisting that "it is important he can use female spaces" then your friend isn't being all that nice at all, actually.

This every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:08

The Staniland Question is so relevant here:

Is there such a thing as a nice male who one day decides he's female and should be allowed in the presence of your ten year old daughter in the showers?

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 18:17

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:08

The Staniland Question is so relevant here:

Is there such a thing as a nice male who one day decides he's female and should be allowed in the presence of your ten year old daughter in the showers?

I look forward to @Maddy70 letting us know that they would absolutely allow their nice male friend to shower in an open communal shower space with their ten year old or not.

I think that those reading along would be very interested in the answer.

I suspect there will be a 'limiting' statement issued that toilets are cubicles and therefore they are different. However, having frequently come across female people in various states of undress in female toilet spaces all my life, I can quite knowledgably say that all too often, female people have the expectation that even the space outside the cubicle is male person free.

But let's wait....

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:20

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 18:17

I look forward to @Maddy70 letting us know that they would absolutely allow their nice male friend to shower in an open communal shower space with their ten year old or not.

I think that those reading along would be very interested in the answer.

I suspect there will be a 'limiting' statement issued that toilets are cubicles and therefore they are different. However, having frequently come across female people in various states of undress in female toilet spaces all my life, I can quite knowledgably say that all too often, female people have the expectation that even the space outside the cubicle is male person free.

But let's wait....

'The great toilet shift' as a technique to deflect or derail is a real curiosity to watch in action.

The reality is we should be pinning down on exactly what the limits of be kind are and where there are areas of problem and concern.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:26

I should add my comment above about Daisy is highly relevant here in terms of Lia Thomas etc al.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 18:27

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2024 18:20

'The great toilet shift' as a technique to deflect or derail is a real curiosity to watch in action.

The reality is we should be pinning down on exactly what the limits of be kind are and where there are areas of problem and concern.

Well, I am just keen to see the explanation as to why any male person in the UK should be considered to be the same level of risk or lower than a female person for committing sex offences to justify any of them accessing any female single sex space.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/11/2024 18:32

There is a special circle in hell set aside for women who do this

It will be full of Maddy's friends as soon as they find out about it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 18:48

@Maddy70

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

Are...are you saying you think the reason we sometimes needs single sex provisions is not our different bodies and the different experiences and challenges they bring in a still sexist society, but because women are people who are super shy, facing the wall when they speak, htper self conscious etc etc. and men are people who are not?

Wow. I mean really, wow.

What a great example of how utterly sexist the whole idea that a man's personality can be somehow so wrong for a man that he is actually a woman truly is, and exactly why the supposedly progressive Democrats have really called this one wrong.

Totallymessed · 13/11/2024 18:49

I'm baffled. What's lovely about a man, who knows he is seen as a man, deliberately putting himself in situations where he knows he's frightening women and girls? It's actually horrible behaviour, and incredibly selfish.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 18:53

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 18:48

@Maddy70

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

Are...are you saying you think the reason we sometimes needs single sex provisions is not our different bodies and the different experiences and challenges they bring in a still sexist society, but because women are people who are super shy, facing the wall when they speak, htper self conscious etc etc. and men are people who are not?

Wow. I mean really, wow.

What a great example of how utterly sexist the whole idea that a man's personality can be somehow so wrong for a man that he is actually a woman truly is, and exactly why the supposedly progressive Democrats have really called this one wrong.

I was surprised by the misogyny inherent in that post. I doubt that some posters will see it though.

It is remarkable on so many levels.

Datun · 13/11/2024 18:57

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 17:53

Because they are ‘nice’ to Maddy!

That they are not nice to the female people who need to not have that male person ever in the female single sex space, well who gives a fuck, eh?

Where is Maddiy's bloody self worth that she's willing to sacrifice women everywhere for the sake of the pat in on back from her male friend

Datun · 13/11/2024 19:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 18:48

@Maddy70

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

Are...are you saying you think the reason we sometimes needs single sex provisions is not our different bodies and the different experiences and challenges they bring in a still sexist society, but because women are people who are super shy, facing the wall when they speak, htper self conscious etc etc. and men are people who are not?

Wow. I mean really, wow.

What a great example of how utterly sexist the whole idea that a man's personality can be somehow so wrong for a man that he is actually a woman truly is, and exactly why the supposedly progressive Democrats have really called this one wrong.

This absolutely.

This male individual was so crippled by his, presumably feminine characteristics, he felt the only way he could express himself was if he said he was a woman.

The sexism is off the fucking scale.

transgender ideology relies on, reinforces, and celebrates sexism.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 19:11

It's the duplicity that gets me.

If @Maddy70 and others with similar views think that we should get rid of male and female provisions, and women-only protections and opportunities like women's sports, and replace them with separate provisions for those who are soft, shy and gentle and those who are rough, confident and agressive regardless of their sex, fine. Be honest. Start your movement. Make your case and maybe society will see it too.

It's the mendacity of saying "oh this man's personality makes him pretty much a woman anyway so it's only fair to treat him as one" that I reject.

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 19:19

I came across an interesting analysis tweet regarding the Democrat election loss:

https://x.com/BigBillMoon/status/1856456019519684698

'Democrats still don’t get it.

  • Every time a movie franchise gender swaps characters, the Democrats lose votes
  • Every time a company puts the trans flag on its social media platform profile pic, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time a transwoman appears in an ad, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time a TV show preaches about pronouns, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time people see parents speaking out about trans ideology in schools, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time people see a furry, they throw up and the Dems lose votes
  • Every time a man enters a women’s sporting event, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time an email signature or Twitter bio contains pronouns, the Dems lose votes
  • Every Trans Month of Remembrance, the Dems lose votes
  • Every time ‘institutional whiteness’ or whatever racist terminology you want gets used, the Dems lose votes.
  • Every time someone uses the word ‘cis’, the Dems lose votes.

It’s ALL connected. Call it ‘intersectional’ maybe.

Until wokeness is stamped out, the Dems will lose votes and Trump and his ilk will win.

^’^

Enough4me · 13/11/2024 23:24

Is it all an extension of, "but be kind" to men?

In the news, man kills partner and kids, "but he was nice, he put his bins out for his neighbours".

Man uses women's facilities, "but he was wearing a dress", or, "but his name label said she/their/unicorn", or, "but we need to be inclusive".

All these buts don't turn a man into a woman or change bad behaviour into good.

LilyBartsHatShop · 14/11/2024 00:02

lcakethereforeIam · 13/11/2024 12:45

Victoria Smith has written about this in the Critic

https://thecritic.co.uk/donald-trump-doesnt-know-what-a-woman-is-either/

I like this analogy

Voting while feminist should not resemble an extreme version of the trolley problem

I really think if the Democrats had won this election then they will never have come back from identity politics. I hope this loss will be the bucket of icy water to the face that will actually wake them up to 'woke'. It is enraging that another Trump presidency is the price the world will pay with no guarantee the Dems will sense by the end of it. Last I heard there were arguments they weren't progressive enough! I hope that was just the Telegraph being the Telegraph or the dying convulsions of a failing body of thought.

I usually fangirl over every word spelled from Victoria Smith's pen, but I don't like this article at all.
Something about the way right wing / conservative women are invisibilised by her version of events?
ETA:
And the way she seems to desire approval from the kind of people who admire Judith Butler? Or position Butler as in some way relevent to anything other than wealthy students earning higher degrees in arcane, baroque disciplines that floated off into the ether decades ago?

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:08

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 05:01

Sure. Troll farms exist.

So does traditional media still and so does human interaction.

Your posts have been constantly dismissive about the very nature of how this overall issue has spread and how under the overall issue is numerous aspects that interconnect. It has been explained to you repeatedly over at least two threads that these issues are impacting on people’s everyday lives. And that people are talking about the impacts with others.

No one doubts there are troll farms. No one.

But you seem unable to understand that it is unlikely that there are parents of any child under probably 20 years old who hasn’t directly had a conversation about this topic. In my own teen’s group of friends, out of 7 of them, 5 all declared a trans identity. In my own group of friends, I have a growing number of them with children who have declared trans identities. And we discuss this in group get togethers including the school’s reactions. And the schools changing toilets and away every accomodation policies to suit. And scouting and girl guiding groups, not just schools. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

You seem unable to understand the lasting impact that any woman going into a store now to try on clothes and finding any male in there feels. I have a close friend who was photographed as she left a cubicle by a male who identitied as a female. I have had many other friends tell me they no longer try on clothes because they don’t feel secure in store changing areas due to first hand experience. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

You seem unable to understand just how widely sport impacts families and how male inclusion in sport directly impacts families. And that women who never thought they would ever protest are out there protesting at sporting events or in front of organisations making decisions to allow male people into sport. I regularly host women only social events, nothing to do with feminist groups, and after each Olympics the topic of discussion has been about watching the national TV channel news and the Olympic events and understanding there were male athletes competing as female athletes. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Then despite some poster’s declarations that no one can tell, women can tell. And now many can tell you their direct personal experience of finding a male in their toilets if they are active and travelling widely. They can tell you how they felt uncomfortable if you let them tell you without judgement. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Then in those same discussions they will tell you about how, again on the national news channels they are listening to or watching they have heard about the women in prison with male people being put there, or the male rapist / murderer that has just gone through court and the news has called that person a woman.And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Or that a distinctly male looking and sounding person won an award meant for a woman the other day and was being celebrated. Or they read about them in the printed magazine at the hairdreasers, doctors surgery, dentist surgery where ever those print mags still exist. And they don’t think any of it is progressive. Again no bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Because even the most left wing people I know are discussing their concerns with people when they feel they will not be judged negatively for it. They have not moved towards the right politically at all. This issue is defying the political divide.

Your continued posts have ignored that by now there are very few women and men who haven’t seen what has been happening without any need for the bots you have claimed to be amplifying reach. And then during the election cycles in various countries, there is no need for bots to raise the awareness, those everyday people are there seeing the speeches from candidates, they are seeing the political debates.

You seem to exist in a world where you believe that everyone is existing on line. I live in a world where many people I know don’t even have social media at all. I have IT friends who actively shun social media. I have other friends who simply don’t bother with social media or anything online much at all. They all end up with similar opinions on this topic.

So Sure there are troll farms. But you have doubled down on multiple threads now and never fully explained your thinking, in fact you make snide remarks when people indicate they cannot see your thinking beyond repetitive claims of ‘bots!’. And you seem to lack the ability to understand that this topic is now so widely impacting on society that people are talking about it and concerned about it because they are experiencing it themselves. No internet amplification involved in many of my real life friend’s cases.

I hand out leaflets and have had a huge range of conversations about it in the middle of shopping areas. I don’t believe I have had one conversation with someone who has not directly seen the impact for themselves yet. Honestly, no troll farms needed to amplify the issue. It is everyday people navigating the issues and now talking about it.

So why do you think people who only listen to PBS or other national news carriers, only read the traditional papers but still have come to the same conclusions because of their personal
interactions have been influenced by bots? Or is it possible that by now, such a large portion of society have directly seen the impacts themselves and feel that there are issues to be addressed?

For your troll farm assertions to be effective, there would not have to be the breadth and depth of impact on people’s everyday lives. They would not be having this discussion at the school gate, around the BBQ, across the fence and at work or with family. Sure there may be some troll farm amplification, but the degree of it that you claim is being rejected because people are having these conversations in real life and with people directly impacted.

You could have just written, “I don’t quite understand you” instead of wasting everyone’s time with that. I did enjoy the repetition of “And this is not a left wing/right wing issue” though so top marks.

If you don’t think there’s anything in it, why spend so much time on super-long posts arguing against it? That’s odd to me.

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:35

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 10:47

I understand Flirts. However, how many more times can the spread of information, the discussions and conversations so many of us are having in real life be dismissed by that poster as ‘bot amplification’ and shaped by troll farms?

And yes, I understand they are discussing at macro level. However, again, that is dismissing the effort so many women have made to get the information out there and in front of media. Not bots. Women.

And I also fail to think that many people only rely on algorithms for their information sources. So this claim of the degree of bot influence doesn’t stack up if you have the depth of knowledge of the movement as you and many of us do have.

Either way , as someone having those conversations I can reasonably draw the conclusion that I am performing the role of a bot.

Flirts summary is correct.

I also said earlier I am NOT dismissing the influence of women, so please stop repeatedly making this claim. Women are at the heart of this movement, and once the trollfarms and bots abandon the cause - and some already have now Trump is elected - it will be only women left.

Relying on alorithmic results isn’t always the best - the algorithm will spin you further and further down into a quite narrow, tailored band of results. I’m sure you know this, though.

To reiterate, I am not calling anyone on this board a bot.

Enough4me · 14/11/2024 00:44

@EyeofOrion it will only be women left - so potentially half the population then?

EyeofOrion · 14/11/2024 00:44

lcakethereforeIam · 13/11/2024 10:59

Isn't it much more likely that the bots and troll farms are targeting the websites where you can post stuff anonymously, particularly where the kids hang out. Places like reddit, instagram and facebook. Which we all know are absolutely overflowing with transphobic bigotry...oh wait! 😁

If bots and trollfarms have been behind anything it's more likely to be in embedding this nonsense. Which seems to be rife over much of the content consumed by children. Dissenting voices in such places are not tolerated. Gender ideology has been spread in the virtual world. The pushback has come from seeing the effects of that in the real world. Lia Thomas may have been created from what William saw or read on the Internet. The reaction against him was from seeing him, in the flesh.

Yes, both.

  1. Gender ideation on Instagram, TikTok etc. (apps young people use)
  2. Anti-gender propaganda on Twitter/Facebook/Reddit (apps older people use)

Thus a clash is born. And this is just one arm of the strategy. There is also immigration, race, religion …

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