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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
RainWithSunnySpells · 13/11/2024 08:27

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 08:22

Out of interest, given your expertise in and concerns about online manipulation of the narrative what do you think about the efforts to take down Kiwifarms?

I'm not going to opine on the site itself, but reading the degree to which private individuals in technology companies are able to remove content from the web by controlling the infrastructure and payment rails was a big eye opener.

Cloudflare in particular is so ubiquitous now, and call me naive (I'm from the early days of the internet when mostly it was a collective effort that prized openness) but I was shocked how much un-overseen power they have to impose censorship simply by dint of where they sit in the stack.

Social media manipulation is one thing, this is outright supression being leveraged by individuals without any checks and balances.

Yes, that would be interesting.
ETA. Josh Moon has had to go to huge lengths to keep the site up and running.

GenerativeAIBot · 13/11/2024 08:40

Ingenieur · 11/11/2024 09:29

Thanks for linking. I had no idea quite how important it was to US voters. Particularly among swing voters, which explains so much. Among that group it looks like it is the most important issue!

It’s SPECIFICALLY the swing voters that won Trump this election and you can see their movement to Trump on identity politics alone as discussed in the audio here

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5207568-sam-harris

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 08:43

izimbra · 12/11/2024 21:13

@@CautiousLurker1

so that's true for every transgender person? Including transgender adults who tell you that transitioning was absolutely the right thing for them? They're just wrong? Your daughter's situation can be generalise to all or most transgender adults? And that's why you now spend your time trying to stop - what? people having any other position on this issue than the one you hold as the parent of a very unhappy and troubled autistic child?

BTW - I also have an autistic son who has no issues around gender but also self harms and is very depressed, and another child with bipolar 1 and cancer, and another one who was raped at 14 and is only now at 25 coming into a happy life as an adult that doesn't involve self harm. Self harm and mental illness is unfortunately incredibly common in your daughter's peer group regardless of any issues they may have around gender. But none of this gives you a right to dictate how every transgender teen or adult should live their lives or how the rest of us should feel about them.

That sounds like an awful littany of suffering...that's tough........however, in spite of that - other people, society, does have a say in how matters are approached and dealt with. Women and girls do have a say and a voice. Their needs, their feelings and their comfort matter very much -which being the mother of a vulnerable daughter I'd have thought you'd understand.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 08:46

EyeofOrion · 13/11/2024 00:23

Where have I blamed anyone for fighting back?

Unfortunately, I think the US is going to find out what authoritarianism really is a few months. Pretending the Democrats are autocratic is silly in comparison.

And yes, feminism is leaning Right. This thread and others like it is clear proof.

If "leaning right" is to do with maintaining healthy boundaries and distinctions and recognising that all change is not automatically for the better, then maybe.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 08:50

Viviennemary · 13/11/2024 02:48

The honest conversation would be to admit that this isn't an important priority in most folks lives.

It might not be the primary concern, but it certainly does concern most people.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 08:52

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 05:01

Sure. Troll farms exist.

So does traditional media still and so does human interaction.

Your posts have been constantly dismissive about the very nature of how this overall issue has spread and how under the overall issue is numerous aspects that interconnect. It has been explained to you repeatedly over at least two threads that these issues are impacting on people’s everyday lives. And that people are talking about the impacts with others.

No one doubts there are troll farms. No one.

But you seem unable to understand that it is unlikely that there are parents of any child under probably 20 years old who hasn’t directly had a conversation about this topic. In my own teen’s group of friends, out of 7 of them, 5 all declared a trans identity. In my own group of friends, I have a growing number of them with children who have declared trans identities. And we discuss this in group get togethers including the school’s reactions. And the schools changing toilets and away every accomodation policies to suit. And scouting and girl guiding groups, not just schools. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

You seem unable to understand the lasting impact that any woman going into a store now to try on clothes and finding any male in there feels. I have a close friend who was photographed as she left a cubicle by a male who identitied as a female. I have had many other friends tell me they no longer try on clothes because they don’t feel secure in store changing areas due to first hand experience. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

You seem unable to understand just how widely sport impacts families and how male inclusion in sport directly impacts families. And that women who never thought they would ever protest are out there protesting at sporting events or in front of organisations making decisions to allow male people into sport. I regularly host women only social events, nothing to do with feminist groups, and after each Olympics the topic of discussion has been about watching the national TV channel news and the Olympic events and understanding there were male athletes competing as female athletes. No bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Then despite some poster’s declarations that no one can tell, women can tell. And now many can tell you their direct personal experience of finding a male in their toilets if they are active and travelling widely. They can tell you how they felt uncomfortable if you let them tell you without judgement. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Then in those same discussions they will tell you about how, again on the national news channels they are listening to or watching they have heard about the women in prison with male people being put there, or the male rapist / murderer that has just gone through court and the news has called that person a woman.And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Or that a distinctly male looking and sounding person won an award meant for a woman the other day and was being celebrated. Or they read about them in the printed magazine at the hairdreasers, doctors surgery, dentist surgery where ever those print mags still exist. And they don’t think any of it is progressive. Again no bots needed. And this is not a left wing/right wing issue.

Because even the most left wing people I know are discussing their concerns with people when they feel they will not be judged negatively for it. They have not moved towards the right politically at all. This issue is defying the political divide.

Your continued posts have ignored that by now there are very few women and men who haven’t seen what has been happening without any need for the bots you have claimed to be amplifying reach. And then during the election cycles in various countries, there is no need for bots to raise the awareness, those everyday people are there seeing the speeches from candidates, they are seeing the political debates.

You seem to exist in a world where you believe that everyone is existing on line. I live in a world where many people I know don’t even have social media at all. I have IT friends who actively shun social media. I have other friends who simply don’t bother with social media or anything online much at all. They all end up with similar opinions on this topic.

So Sure there are troll farms. But you have doubled down on multiple threads now and never fully explained your thinking, in fact you make snide remarks when people indicate they cannot see your thinking beyond repetitive claims of ‘bots!’. And you seem to lack the ability to understand that this topic is now so widely impacting on society that people are talking about it and concerned about it because they are experiencing it themselves. No internet amplification involved in many of my real life friend’s cases.

I hand out leaflets and have had a huge range of conversations about it in the middle of shopping areas. I don’t believe I have had one conversation with someone who has not directly seen the impact for themselves yet. Honestly, no troll farms needed to amplify the issue. It is everyday people navigating the issues and now talking about it.

So why do you think people who only listen to PBS or other national news carriers, only read the traditional papers but still have come to the same conclusions because of their personal
interactions have been influenced by bots? Or is it possible that by now, such a large portion of society have directly seen the impacts themselves and feel that there are issues to be addressed?

For your troll farm assertions to be effective, there would not have to be the breadth and depth of impact on people’s everyday lives. They would not be having this discussion at the school gate, around the BBQ, across the fence and at work or with family. Sure there may be some troll farm amplification, but the degree of it that you claim is being rejected because people are having these conversations in real life and with people directly impacted.

Just to add, because it was the middle of the night and I forgot a very common scenario.

How many work places are unaffected at all by issues around gender identity? By now if you worked in most international corporations or large businesses, you will have encountered impacts. But also almost any government or education institution. And the impacts range from pronoun usage, and language compliance to having male people in single sex spaces. Again, no troll farms needed here to amplify the issues. At all.

I know very few people who are fully comfortable with calling people she when they are male nor fully comfortable with having to contort their they/thems. It is why Trumps ad was so spot on ! I don’t think that many other countries’ politicians would have used such an ad. But it worked.

Because most people have now been directly exposed to the language demands now. And once they start thinking about those, they realise just how manipulated they feel. Those language demands unravel much of the issues that the Democratic Party declared they supported. While showing that those language demands are authoritarian and totalitarian in nature.

No troll farms needed. By now many workplaces have exposed voters to the issues and despite being told that this is progressive, I think many people have worked out it is the opposite.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/11/2024 08:57

Viviennemary · 13/11/2024 02:48

The honest conversation would be to admit that this isn't an important priority in most folks lives.

It might not be. But if you can see a politician saying that the sky is green, when you know the sky isn't green and you know they know the sky isn't green, then even if you don't care what colour the sky is it still makes you wonder what else they are lying about.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:04

Sheri99 · 13/11/2024 05:29

Why is it impossible for feminism to be right wing?

Good question. The automatic assumption that Left = Good and Right = Bad is predicated on an unquestioning kind of faith.

I would certainly once have identified myself as being on the Left - but this whole issue ( genderism and the colonisation of female spaces)has radically shaken things up. It has caused such a jolt that I now view things with what I consider a bit more objectivity.

I read a very thought provoking book by Frank Furedi a year or two ago entitled 'Why Borders Matter'. Without borders and boundaries there can be no distinctions, no individual integrity, and no autonomous selfhood either. The trend in the last few decades has been towards ever greater openness and permeability.'Openness' is lauded as an unquestioned virtue.

Alongside this there has been, especially in the West/the U.S, an excessive focus on the individual, their rights and choice to " be whoever they are/their best self "and so on - which negates community solidarity and one's responsibilities to others. As with most things the 'self' has become monetised and marketed; a consumer product......

If the Left could be said to be about openness and equality ( which ends up meaning 'sameness and no distinctions or discriminations) then the Right could be said to be about appropriate boundaries, borders and about responsibility for one's actions. You cannot have social stability without boundaries. And ironically, you cannot have individual rights without boundaries and an ability to discriminate, either.

The whole left/right thing is so unnuanced and lacking in critical engagement.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:16

WarriorN · 13/11/2024 06:37

@Sheri99 Why is it impossible for feminism to be right wing?

You need to define what you mean by right wing.

Feminism in its true sense, whereby it centres only females and their needs/ rights based on their biological makeup, up is by proxy left leaning as it's about social liberation specifically for women.

It's anti patriarchal.

I'm not sure I'd analyse it in the same way.

I suggest that left leaning type feminsim - which as you suggest is predicated on 'liberation' from biologically linked social roles - is in large part behind the whole gender movement. I suggest genderism arose out of that sort of feminism. The idea that the only thing holding women back, preventing their 'liberation' was their role as mothers, and through this role being tied to the home. In a society in which only paid work is valued, motherhood and homemaking becomes an unvalued dead end.

Young women are now encourgaed to eschew motherhood and focus on self fulfilment through work and career; to become financially independent from men, and to compete with men for the same roles and occupations. Their biology is seen almost as a curse; the cause of women's subjugation and oppression.

Of course we see men taking advantage of this openness and fluidity - and encroaching on what were once considered female spaces...and it is mostly women helping them, it seems. Why are women enabling this?

borntobequiet · 13/11/2024 09:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/11/2024 08:57

It might not be. But if you can see a politician saying that the sky is green, when you know the sky isn't green and you know they know the sky isn't green, then even if you don't care what colour the sky is it still makes you wonder what else they are lying about.

And it makes you question their sanity, as well as their integrity.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:24

I'm not sure of the truth of this.....but it made me laugh.....Elon Musk, in his bid to reduce government spending and bureaucracy is going to have a live 'leader' table which will show the most ridiculous things that public taxes are being spent on......one of the first things to go on this list is apparently going to be a publicly funded research project into " HIV in Transgender Monkeys"

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:27

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:24

I'm not sure of the truth of this.....but it made me laugh.....Elon Musk, in his bid to reduce government spending and bureaucracy is going to have a live 'leader' table which will show the most ridiculous things that public taxes are being spent on......one of the first things to go on this list is apparently going to be a publicly funded research project into " HIV in Transgender Monkeys"

"One post, that Musk re-shared, alleged that $750,000 of tax is used for the New York Metropolitan Opera fire alarm.

In another, Senator Rand Paul's claim that the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases spent $477,121 "to study HIV in transgender monkeys" is cited.

Musk says Doge's actions will be posted online for transparency, and there will be a leader board for the "most insanely dumb spending of your tax dollars".
He claims 99 federal agencies is "more than enough" - there are currently over 400 agencies and sub-agencies"

( BBC)

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/11/2024 09:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/11/2024 08:57

It might not be. But if you can see a politician saying that the sky is green, when you know the sky isn't green and you know they know the sky isn't green, then even if you don't care what colour the sky is it still makes you wonder what else they are lying about.

Indeed. Hannah Arendt wrote that:
"The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed".

Every adult who gaslights a child that they're really the opposite sex fatally undermines that child's sense of reality. Every politician/ institution who agrees that men claiming to be women are really women undermines reality.
It's a lie. An untruth. A falsehood.

We know it and they know it. If they won't return to speaking the truth, then the rest of society will eventually force them to . As the Democrats have just discovered.

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 09:38

Viviennemary · 13/11/2024 02:48

The honest conversation would be to admit that this isn't an important priority in most folks lives.

This. How many people is it actually affecting? I hear ya when you are talk about safe women's spaces. But if a man is identifying as a woman simply ti access those spaces then its not a trans person you have issue with its predatory men.

borntobequiet · 13/11/2024 09:40

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 09:38

This. How many people is it actually affecting? I hear ya when you are talk about safe women's spaces. But if a man is identifying as a woman simply ti access those spaces then its not a trans person you have issue with its predatory men.

Welcome to the discourse of 2012 (approximately).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/11/2024 09:43

borntobequiet · 13/11/2024 09:40

Welcome to the discourse of 2012 (approximately).

😂

CautiousLurker1 · 13/11/2024 09:46

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 09:38

This. How many people is it actually affecting? I hear ya when you are talk about safe women's spaces. But if a man is identifying as a woman simply ti access those spaces then its not a trans person you have issue with its predatory men.

🤦🏽‍♀️

Datun · 13/11/2024 09:50

EyeofOrion

So we've established it's not a minuscule issue, that it's not insignificant in any way, that it affects women and children everywhere, and for a number of them the impact is enormous.

Plus, it's not making feminists 'right wing', it's making them disillusioned with the left. Which, as you say, might have been the plan all along.

Given it's got to be stopped, and it has infiltrated in numerous different sections of society, my question is what do you want to happen? And how?

What's your answer / solution / recommendation?

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 13/11/2024 09:51

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/11/2024 09:35

Indeed. Hannah Arendt wrote that:
"The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed".

Every adult who gaslights a child that they're really the opposite sex fatally undermines that child's sense of reality. Every politician/ institution who agrees that men claiming to be women are really women undermines reality.
It's a lie. An untruth. A falsehood.

We know it and they know it. If they won't return to speaking the truth, then the rest of society will eventually force them to . As the Democrats have just discovered.

It is frightening for children to have their understanding of the world and reality undermined in this way. It should be criminal that some schools have done it to entire cohorts of developing children.

When my DD started secondary school (a school chosen and fought to get into on the basis that it seemed more reality based than the others with male and female bathrooms) she was given some genderist indoctrination, mentioned (I think) up thread. She told me it made her "scared". Of course it fucking did. Teachers were undermining her sense of reality, decency and essentially saying she couldn't say 'no' to males in female spaces that said the magic words.

Fortunately in this school, this was quickly corrected (as a result of parental complaints) and sex based safeguarding reinstated.

But I know in other schools these lies and the undermining of safeguarding and breaking of the law (by allowing boys in girls toilets, which is illegal over 8) have continued for years.

Undermining children's grasp on what is real is emotional abuse. Forcing them to lie is emotional abuse.

EasternStandard · 13/11/2024 09:52

Viviennemary · 13/11/2024 02:48

The honest conversation would be to admit that this isn't an important priority in most folks lives.

That's what you think the Democrats should talk about after their big loss?

Just say to each other no one cares it doesn't matter and keep pushing gender ideology

I guess we'll see how they do with that

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/11/2024 09:52

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 09:38

This. How many people is it actually affecting? I hear ya when you are talk about safe women's spaces. But if a man is identifying as a woman simply ti access those spaces then its not a trans person you have issue with its predatory men.

How do we keep predatory men out of women's spaces but let male people who genuinely do believe they identify as women into them?

Talk us through how you would (a) write and (b) enforce that rule.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 13/11/2024 09:53

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 09:24

I'm not sure of the truth of this.....but it made me laugh.....Elon Musk, in his bid to reduce government spending and bureaucracy is going to have a live 'leader' table which will show the most ridiculous things that public taxes are being spent on......one of the first things to go on this list is apparently going to be a publicly funded research project into " HIV in Transgender Monkeys"

Please let this be true!!

Datun · 13/11/2024 09:53

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 09:38

This. How many people is it actually affecting? I hear ya when you are talk about safe women's spaces. But if a man is identifying as a woman simply ti access those spaces then its not a trans person you have issue with its predatory men.

We have now way of knowing if they're predatory or not.

I don't care if they're not, I still don't want them in there.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 09:54

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/11/2024 09:35

Indeed. Hannah Arendt wrote that:
"The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed".

Every adult who gaslights a child that they're really the opposite sex fatally undermines that child's sense of reality. Every politician/ institution who agrees that men claiming to be women are really women undermines reality.
It's a lie. An untruth. A falsehood.

We know it and they know it. If they won't return to speaking the truth, then the rest of society will eventually force them to . As the Democrats have just discovered.

Every adult who gaslights a child that they're really the opposite sex fatally undermines that child's sense of reality. Every politician/ institution who agrees that men claiming to be women are really women undermines reality.

It's a lie. An untruth. A falsehood.

This cannot be said enough!

Kucinghitam · 13/11/2024 09:54

What's your answer / solution / recommendation?

I'm guessing it's along the lines of "Look over there! A squirrel!" Grin

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