The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

[Ingenieur]

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

Some would think in terms of Kai Shappley passing quite convincingly at 8

I think most decent people, if they knew about the abuse Kai Shappley had faced, would be shocked.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3408173-Kai-Shappley-A-Trans-Girl-Growing-Up-In-Texas

The video is far more revealing than either mom or filmmakers realize.

Mom recounts her extreme homophobia, which led her to inflict draconian cruelty & physical abuse on her poor child for the "sin" of "acting like a girl" & "liking girl toys". But no matter how much mom beat her girly pre-schooler, he "persisted" in acting girly & liking girly things. Finally, at approx 7:30, mom recounts realizing before Kai was 3 that he "might be gay. And I thought that could not happen. That would not happen..." Unable to live & let live, mom's only option "to make Kai not like this" is conversion therapy, which entailed "spanking her - really spanking her" every time Kai acted girly.
But as her probably gay little boy remained deeply unhappy, attempts to punish him out of being girly all failed. So after a staged shot of the child praying for his family to have love & courage, at approx 9:00 mom recounts her Damascene realization: "my kid was praying to die. All of the information & data that I had read about transgender children having a 41 percent risk of attempting suicide came flooding back & I realized that I had a 4-year-old who was begging the Lord to let her die... (rather than) stay here & have to live as a boy one more day."

The Democrat response doesn’t undermine anything I’ve said. This is a culture war from many angles overseen by bad actors. You are only looking at the surface detail really - but there’s a whole networked ocean underneath.

I think women are fed up of being told it's complicated. It's really not. Funny how it wasn't complicated until roughly a decade ago.

Of course it does.

You can only stoke a culture war to the extent that your opponent allows you to.

If Trump said, "The Democrats believe the sky is green", the Democrats would say, "Of course we don't believe the sky is green" and Trump would look stupid.

But when Trump says, "The Democrats believe men should be allowed to compete in women's sport", the Democrats can't refute that effectively because they actually do believe that men should be allowed to compete in women's sport. So they have to fall back on calling people bigoted for saying that someone with a penis who has gone through male puberty is a man.

And people are fed up with that gaslighting bullshit, which is why Trump won.

'complicated' , 'culture wars' just fucking excuses not to discuss women's rights.

There is no "networked ocean underneath". There are just men insisting they are women if they say they are. They aren't.

Also why is "culture war" used to dismiss people's concerns? It's as if you're saying people being in disagreement and wanting to debate something that is important – yes culturally, also socially, legally and morally extremely important, if you look at the outcomes we're seeing for women, children and lesbians – is somehow pathetic or pointless. So "no debate" is preferable then?

Like many people I base my views and my ideas on how society should be run on logical reasoning, evidence and fairness. That's generally how most democratic societies are run, or used to be. If a movement based on the idea that men can magically be women and vice versa - with no evidence given for that - is going to take that away from me, while harming women and girls in general, endangering children and forcing me to say I agree with nonsense on pain of losing my livelihood - of course I feel like I want to fight against that and pretty bloody reasonably so. It's a "war" on common sense, reason, logic, semantics, fairness, equality, safeguarding and evidence-based practice. So excuse me if I wish to take the opposing side in that war. I didn't start it.

Funny you should say that.

Trump was first elected in 2016. This is roughly when the culture wars began the kindle. For example, look how the word ‘woke’ has gone from little-used to everywhere in less than a decade. It’s unfortunate, too, as its historical racial meaning has changed.

So you are blaming Trump using the word 'woke' for the fact that the Democrats removed Title IX and appointed Rachel Levine with their agenda on 'gender affirming' surgery being accessible to minors? etc etc..

I mean the guys got a bit enough ego already right? But that's batshit.

Trump was first elected in 2016. This is roughly when the culture wars began the kindle.

Gay marriage was passed into law in the U.K. in 2014 and you can trace Stonewall's focus on trans issues to that time. 2014/15 was considered to be a "trans tipping point" in the US. It precedes Trump.

This.

Trump was first elected in 2016. This is roughly when the culture wars began the kindle. For example, look how the word ‘woke’ has gone from little-used to everywhere in less than a decade. It’s unfortunate, too, as its historical racial meaning has changed.

Now do "cisgender" or "non binary"

time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/

@WhatterySquash

Also why is "culture war" used to dismiss people's concerns? It's as if you're saying people being in disagreement and wanting to debate something that is important – yes culturally, also socially, legally and morally extremely important, if you look at the outcomes we're seeing for women, children and lesbians – is somehow pathetic or pointless. So "no debate" is preferable then?

Debate is crucial - not pathetic, never pointless.

All I ask is that people think about these things. Massive cultural shifts are underway and, in part, most people don’t seem to be aware of them or who is pulling the strings. I work in cybersecurity so I have some knowledge here.

All this mysteriousness amounts to what though? The Republicans saw an open goal, and booted a ball into the back of the net. That's all.

Actually I would say that the #MeToo movement, the prosecution of Weinstein and Epstein were the trigger points for the culture wars (though Trump’s ‘grab ‘em by the pussy’ tapes were mixed in with that)… ie there was a global cultural awakening to the fact that (often young) women (together with young gay men) were victims of predatory wealthy, largely white, men and that we had been deceiving ourselves for a couple of decades that women were safe and regarded as equals.

THIS was the pivotal point for me - and for many pubescent girls such as my 12yo daughter who’s periods began the summer of 2016 against this backdrop. Her very logical, Aspie/ADHD brain deduced it was better to be a boy than grow up in a world that is hostile towards women and which has fuck all real interest in protecting women and girls. I couldn’t come up with a convincing riposte as, after all, this is the world we were seeing in the media, on the news and is a position that governments/political parties have since doubled-down on (the SNP, the Democrats, the Greens/Labour/Liberals here in the UK).

They did not act quickly enough to protect women’s sports, to redefine ‘woman’ as biological female for legislative purposes, they did not step in to ensure that policy in the NHS, schools, CAMHS was science and research informed rather than ideologically shaped by unelected individuals/organisations who should never have had access to the ears of policy makers. The president of the US from 2016-2020 has eff all to do with what has been happening here in the UK and Europe.

I think it is lazy and, frankly, bloody stupid to blame this on Trump or his party.

Are you also on a different website where progressive Democrat supporters gather and there are instructing them to end their side of the Culture Wars EyeofOrion?

No. Your post doesn’t make much sense, but in general, around that time ‘woke’ sprang into use as a derogatory term for a Leftist and/Leftist practice - eg. it became one of the socio-cultural pressure points. The culprit wasn’t Trump per se but Russia/China/Iran. Now all the Right goons say “woke!” like trained parrots.

What adjective would you prefer to use to describe people who pretend to believe that women can have penises because it is currently fashionable in certain social circles to do so?

It’s not all. Really? You’re smarter than that!

Challenged? I don’t believe in that. I already said so.

It’s not all. Really? You’re smarter than that!

What is it then?

Actually I would say that the #MeToo movement, the prosecution of Weinstein and Epstein were the trigger points for the culture wars (though Trump’s ‘grab ‘em by the pussy’ tapes were mixed in with that)… ie there was a global cultural awakening to the fact that (often young) women (together with young gay men) were victims of predatory wealthy, largely white, men and that we had been deceiving ourselves for a couple of decades that women were safe and regarded as equals.

The conversation had to be shifted away from what was happening and had happened to women and girls and lo and behold men who claim to be women suddenly became the most oppressed ever, ever in the whole wide world and of course the handy upside of that was that women and girls could be returned to the role of second class, service humans and punished for failing to comply quietly.

No. Your post doesn’t make much sense

What doesn't make sense? It's exactly what the Democrats have done.

You're missing the point. The Republicans aren't spreading misinformation about what the Democrats believe. They are publicising what the Democrats do actually believe, because they know that most people don't agree with it.