The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

[Ingenieur]

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

Crikey. I don't think Starmer is that bad

For both Republican and Democrat voters gender affirming care, was the least important issue!

Harris voters:
Protecting democracy 68%
Access to abortion 67%
Healthcare 65%
The economy 60%
Climate change 57%
Gun violence 56%
Inflation 53%
Housing affordability 43%
Immigration 43%
Freedom of speech 42%
Crime and safety 41%
US' standing in the world 36%
US involvement in foreign wars 34%
Access to gender affirming care 28%

Trump Voters:
Immigration 72%
The economy 68%
Inflation 65%
Crime and safety 56%
US involvement in foreign wars 50%
Protecting democracy 44%
US' standing in the world 44%
Freedom of speech 41%
Healthcare 37%
Housing affordability 29%
Gun violence 20%
Access to abortion 18%
Climate change 9%
Access to gender affirming care 6%

See image below for how that balanced out for voters as a whole

Source https://www.investopedia.com/early-voters-determined-their-presidential-vote-economy-8739601

@IwantToRetire I think the argument being made (at least by that advisor to the Democrats whose name I can't remember) is that paediatric gender affirming care (and related issues - sport, prisons &c.) led to registered Democrats staying home and not voting at all.
Are there similar polls being done asking those who didn't vote why they stayed home?

For both Republican and Democrat voters gender affirming care, was the least important issue!

Right, but how about if the topic is referenced properly - even something basic like "men in women's sports and services and prisons". You're going to need a better-worded survey than that.

"Access to gender affirming care" is probably at the bottom of my list of priorities too, you know? (Either gaining it for myself, or even trying to ban it for adults.)

It's like having an entry for "Access to Operating Thetan levels" rather than just "Scientology". Would people objecting to Scientologists being embedded in power be supposed to tick "Access to Operating Thetan levels"? Them not ticking that would hardly be evidence of lack of concern about a party's support for Scientology.

(Indeed, the framing of the question itself demonstrates how deeply embedded the problem is. Almost as if it's trying to conceal preferences.)

What of the hopes and dreams of female athletes; or the feelings of safety, comfort and dignity of 50 % of the population that is women and girls? Those with trans identities can campaign for their own spaces, services and categories - not appropriate and colonise thiose that have been appointed for other groups.

The wording and phrasing on that table is very Democrat policy/worldview oriented; most likely in the same way that the polling was ( the polling that turned out to be highly inaccurate because it focused on and sampled mostly Democrat leaning voters).

@izimbra has had it explained to them a gazillion times that the moment the definition of woman includes “adult human females and men who claim to feel like a woman (even though this womanly feeling is never defined)” that this affects every single thing fir women

how can you have single sex anything for women when the definition of women also includes “and some men”?

you can’t and so at a stroke it’s 51% of the female population affected

but they know this

I know, it is truly strange......how people can be so committed to holding together two contradictory pieces of information in their head, and why?

For both Republican and Democrat voters gender affirming care, was the least important issue!

It’s not clear how to interpret that, as it obscures what many find troublesome about gender issues.
However, as has been noted before, “minor” issues can be deciding factors in decisions made by swing voters, and that’s where elections are decided.

Who is most vulnerable is exactly central to the whole debate though.

Gender identity springs from grievance politics which much of the Trump rhetoric also comes from with a different focus. Incelism is grievance politics.

Identity politics could only arise at a time where there is massive inequality AND massive grievance AND a bunch of wankers ready to exploit the whole sorry mess and pretend they are the most vulnerable because it's about using that to punch down.

It's misleading to say that gender affirming care was the least important issue when freedom of speech got a whopping 41% in Trump voters...

What's also interesting is the economy and inflation were both less important to Harris voters than Trump voters suggesting a greater level of privilege and economic security.

This ⬆️

(Except I am concerned about vulnerable adults as well as children.)

Would people objecting to Scientologists being embedded in power be supposed to tick "Access to Operating Thetan levels"? Them not ticking that would hardly be evidence of lack of concern about a party's support for Scientology.

This sums it up. Likewise, if I had concerns about Christians being in power (I don't, unless they start demanding I go to church every week etc) "access to Bibles" would still fall low on my list of priorities.

Anyone who objects to genderists being in power (perhaps they object to enforced pronoun adherence, or acceptance of males in women's sports) has no way to surface this in those options.

It'd be interesting to see the survey results that led the Republican campaign team to pour $215 in to campaigning on what it and Trump called "the transgender issue". Yes, it's shorthand for something far bigger and some people will find that phrase uncomfortable, but there must have been at least one survey that the Republican campaign team ran or accessed that drew out how much it mattered to people.

For both Republican and Democrat voters gender affirming care, was the least important issue!

I assume that what IwantToRetire is pointing out here is that, at least on the Democrat side, which might not apply to the Republican side, they would likely have interpreted the question is how important it was to provide access to gender affirming care, which would include to children, and the subset of Democrats in the survey weren't especially bothered.

This would suggest that the Trump campaign saying that Harris and co were all about the gender stuff was intelligent campaigning because even among Democrats, they themselves weren't so keen on it.

I'd argue that many gender critics whilst they sincerely despise gender ideology are more tolerant to it than many gender ideologists are willing to believe.

If it was something that didn't impact on others - as in you just transitioned and didn't force pronouns and your way into changing rooms even most republicans would just let them get on with it.

Tolerance is about letting others live their lives how they want. This doesn't mean you have to agree with it - and this is where the Democrats mess up. And the problem is the enforcement of it, to a level that you can't even say the word woman anymore. That's where it crosses from liberalism (which can be left or right wing) into authoritarianism.

It's the authoritarianism that's crept in that the issue.

"The transgender issue" wasn't one message. It would have been heard, understood, and responded very differently to by voters who were Democrats, Republicans, and the undecideds.

Also 'access to gender affirming care' strikes me solely as the equivalent of getting surgery or hormones it IS NOT about all the other crap like pronouns and sport.

It would have been interpreted very differently depending on which group. Some would think in terms of Kai Shappley passing quite convincingly at 8, and others would think about the school in Loudoun County setting up conditions to enable a rape and then covering it up.

HRTFT so this might have been posted. If gender issues were so low down on the list for voters, how come the Republican campaign ad hit right to the core of the issue. It went along the lines of 'Kamal is for they/them, Trump is for you'
That slogan really hit home and has been seen as significant. It cuts through all the bs and highlighted the lack of care for all rights by focusing on the smallest minority. It put the Democratic party's ideological scatter gun front and centre.

The latter would fall under law and order to many and it being a collapse in it.

I'd argue that many gender critics whilst they sincerely despise gender ideology are more tolerant to it than many gender ideologists are willing to believe.

TBF, I don't despise gender ideology any more than I despise Christian ideology.

The point at which my contempt kicks in is where it's being enforced in education, healthcare, sports, workplaces, changing rooms etc as if it's factually true.

Yes, if a) it were completely harmless to use hormones and have surgeries** and b) nobody was forcing me to accept that a male who identified as a girl/woman (or a female who identified as a boy/man) had actually become one, I would have no concerns whatsoever about anyone identifying however they liked.

It would just fall in to everything else in society where we teach our children not to judge others unfairly but equally, to have boundaries and to trust their instincts. If the wolf in the dress has bigger teeth and bigger eyes than grandma, but is still demanding access to the changing room with all the grandmas, mums, sisters and daughters... it's OK to trust your gut and recognise that this might not be safe. What's not OK is the societal fear and peer pressure that lets the wolf in and forces everyone to pretend that they feel totally fine about it all. Obviously not everyone who puts on a dress has bad intentions (hence not being judgemental), but someone that insists that they should have access, when they know it makes others uncomfortable, is a walking red flag.

The Democrats seem intent on not only ignoring this but also being the enforcers. Hopefully Labour will have a rethink.

**This feels particularly pertinent as this week my daughter told me that she wished there was a way to be a man without it being so dangerous. It shows how vulnerable she still is to believing that she's in the wrong body and needs to do something about it to make herself feel happier. I'm just thankful that she can see how harmful it is for females to use testosterone. She still wants to be stronger and still hates lots about her changing body. She's still jealous of boys going through puberty and being stronger and faster than girls. I'm hoping she gets more confident in realising that her body can do great things (she loves playing football in her girls' football team for example) and holds on to the knowledge that she has acquired about the dangers of medical transition. Sadly her short hair and preference for "boys' clothes" mean that there are lots of "kind" adults ready to help her wonder if she's stuck in the wrong body... it's amazing how many don't realise that girls can dress and style themselves like this without them needing to "be" boys. FFS.

Women's rights to live freely with access to single sex spaces and compete in sports can only be used as a 'culture war' by Trump because the Democrats let women down so badly.

So yes, to the point of the thread, the Democrats absolutely do need an honest conversation about gender identity.

@BonfireLady for your daughter and for you. Stay strong.

The other mistake you make taking that poll at face value is that you make the assumption that just because something isn't a priority, that means it's not something you feel strongly about.

It is possible to have lots of other priorities but also think it's abhorrent to be medically transitioning a child; if your child isn't directly affected or you don't have a child it's not going to be your priority is it?

If that were the case, why did the Democrats not immediately defuse it by simply saying

"trans women are not women, trans women are men. As such, they have no place in women's sports, refuges, prizes, prisons or single sex spaces.

Men who dress as women have no insight into womanhood and should not be given positions where they are assumed to speak as or for women.

No one is born in the wrong sex body for their mind, no mind is the wrong gender for its body, and so there is no need for so-called gender affirming healthcare that harms the body in pursuit of a fantasy of the mind."

You clearly believe you are smarter than others, smart enough to see through Trump's ruse, but it would seem that the Democrats response undermines your argument.

Can you explain this? If you are right and it is a non -issue inflamed by Trump, why on earth did the Democrats not simply de-fang it?

@RedToothBrush
"I'd argue that many gender critics whilst they sincerely despise gender ideology are more tolerant to it than many gender ideologists are willing to believe."

@BonfireLady
"TBF, I don't despise gender ideology any more than I despise Christian ideology.
The point at which my contempt kicks in is where it's being enforced"

When the Safe Schools Program controversy sparked off in Australia (ten or 15 years ago now) I wasn't paying very close attention to the news. Just hearing soundbites, I assumed that conservatives and defenders of Judeo-Christian values were angry because children were being taught that understandings of sexuality and gender were different for different people.
When I looked more closely I was aghast to discover that the "progressives" who had developed and were promoting the program had a very particular, rigid and fixed definition of gender, and understanding of how that related to sex and sexuality. It was the "conservatives" who were asking for pluralism in the way this stuff was taught to school kids!
Another moment of feeling like the rug had been pulled out from under me.