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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender neutral language in pregnancy care

203 replies

QuirkyJadeSwan · 10/10/2024 02:49

So I’m currently pregnant with my first and have been kind of low key annoyed with how common discussions around pregnancy and related topics remove to term woman or female (I.e birthing people). I started getting bugged by this during my trying to conceive phase and now it bugs me even more. I know it’s kind of a minor thing in the grand scheme of things but I needed to vent. Seriously going through TTC & pregnancy has made me about 10x more aware of how different physically women are.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:15

Only female people can get pregnant. Women, and sometimes girls.

musicalfrog · 10/10/2024 10:15

@lady1nthelake

You know fine well that 'inclusive' language does not stop at 'people'.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:22

musicalfrog · 10/10/2024 10:15

@lady1nthelake

You know fine well that 'inclusive' language does not stop at 'people'.

Where does it go next?

ZeldaFighter · 10/10/2024 10:22

This is making me ragey!

Pregnancy, birth and post-natal care are for WOMEN. That's why it's currently underfunded and in need of improvement in most parts of the UK.

Pretending otherwise is a disservice to every WOMAN. Erasing the long history of WOMEN'S experience of birth is offensive. Taking away the hard-earned title and status of MOTHER is offensive. Pretending that this is not a hugely important and formative stage in a WOMAN'S life is offensive.

This needs to stop.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:25

And they are women's rights issues.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 10/10/2024 10:25

From the article linked in my previous post:

Desexing the language of female reproduction has been done with a view to being sensitive to individual needs and as beneficial, kind, and inclusive. Yet, this kindness has delivered unintended consequences that have serious implications for women and children. These include: decreasing overall inclusivity; dehumanizing; including people who should be excluded; being imprecise, inaccurate or misleading; and disembodying and undermining breastfeeding. In addition, avoidance of the term “mother” in its sexed sense, risks reducing recognition and the right to protection of the mother-infant dyad.

Decreases Overall Inclusivity
Avoiding sexed terminology in relation to female reproduction works against the plain language principle of health communication and risks reducing inclusivity for vulnerable groups by making communications more difficult to understand (57). Those who are young, with low literacy or education, with an intellectual disability, from conservative religious backgrounds, or being communicated to in their non-native language are at increased risk of misunderstanding desexed language (5862). However, even women with high levels of education may not be familiar with female reproductive processes and terms of female anatomy and physiology and so may not understand some desexed terms (6365). They may not know, for example, that “a person with a cervix” is a woman and refers to them (59). Translating desexed text into other languages may also be more difficult particularly when there is no direct equivalent to the English sex-neutral “parent” (e.g. Spanish which has only “padre”) (66).

Dehumanizes
Numerous alternative terms for “women” and “mothers” involve references to body parts or physiological processes. Referring to individuals in this reduced, mechanistic way is commonly perceived as “othering” and dehumanizing (67). For example, the term “pregnant woman” identifies the subject as a person experiencing a physiological state, whereas “gestational carrier” or “birther” marginalizes their humanity. Efforts to eliminate dehumanizing language in medical care are longstanding (68), including in relation to women during pregnancy, birth, and new motherhood (67, 6971). Using language that respects childbearing women is imperative given the prevalence of obstetric violence (18, 72, 73). Considering women in relation to males as “non-men” or “non-males”, treats the male body as standard (8) and hearkens back to the sexist Aristotelian conceptualization of women as failed men (74).

Includes People Who Should Be Excluded
Terms such as “parents” and “families” as replacements for “mothers” can inappropriately include fathers and other family members, thus diminishing and invisibilising women (75). Use of “people” and “families” as replacements for “women” can similarly inappropriately include males and other family members. Women have unique experiences, needs and rights in relation to pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding that are not shared with others (18, 7679). It cannot be assumed that a woman's interests will align with those of her husband or partner. This is most clearly illustrated by the issue of domestic violence which often commences or increases during pregnancy and for which the worldwide prevalence ranges from 5 to 63% (80). Women, even when pregnant, do not lose their individual human rights, and should be supported to make autonomous decisions throughout pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. This includes for example, their companion of choice during birth (81) who may or may not be the father of their child. However, text referring to “birthing families” can suggest other family members have rights regarding a woman's decision making during birth. Similarly, text referring to supporting “parents” or “families” to make infant feeding decisions (82) suggests people other than the mother should make decisions regarding breastfeeding (75). This overlooks that partners and family members may directly or indirectly undermine breastfeeding (75, 83). It also obscures the positionality of women as rights-holders and family members as duty-bearers in relation to breastfeeding (76). Terminology that includes others can thus impede the provision of appropriate care and erode the rights of mothers and their infants.

The intent of “additive language” is to encapsulate pregnant and birthing females or female parents as a group but to do so in a way that avoids offense to those who do not wish to be named as women or mothers. However, the addition of terms like “birthing people” or “breastfeeding parents” changes the meanings of “women” and “mothers” from sexed terms that include all female people and all female parents, to gendered terms that may be confusing or inappropriately inclusive. For example, what does the phrase “women and birthing people” actually mean? This construction could be interpreted in a literal way as meaning that “women” are not people. Another interpretation occurs if “women” is meant or read in a gendered sense so including males with the gender identity of “woman” who cannot be pregnant or give birth. It is not always clear from the context. The change in meaning of “women” from a sexed term to a gender identity can also mean that those women who do not have a belief in gender identity as a concept do not see themselves reflected in the gendered use of “women.” Consequently, they may feel objectified by terms referring to processes like “birthing people” [e.g. (84)]. Thus, although sprinkling some “additive language” is often presented as a simple solution, it has its own risks, particularly when there is a need to be specific, to refer only to female people or female parents and to exclude male people or male parents.
Introduces Inaccuracy, Precludes Precision, and

Creates Confusion
Replacing a word with another of different meaning as if they are synonyms makes communications inaccurate or confusing. For example, in a growing number of papers, the severity of COVID-19 disease in pregnant women is being misrepresented by comparing “pregnant people” to “non-pregnant people” (40, 8592) when the comparator in the research in question is “non-pregnant females.” Given the greater severity of COVID-19 disease in males (93), this misrepresentation means readers may under-estimate disease severity in pregnant women. Highly regarded organizations like the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (40) and the Australian Department of Health (85) have made this error, and research containing this error has been published in the eminent New England Journal of Medicine (86). In the Australian Department of Health case, the mistake appeared when a previously published document was updated and a seemingly simple and innocuous “find and replace” undertaken with the word “women” switched with “people.” This change made the statistics on disease severity incorrect (see Supplementary Material 1 for further details). Carelessness may partly explain such errors, but there appears to be no easy way to straightforwardly communicate scientific information about female reproduction without using sexed terms. The misrepresentation of research and health communication during a pandemic ought to raise serious concern about how inappropriately desexing language can undermine public health.

Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language

On 24 September 2021, The Lancet medical journal highlighted an article on its cover with a single sentence in large text; ‘Historically, the anatomy and phy...

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/global-womens-health/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full#B74

wincarwoo · 10/10/2024 10:26

@Lady1ntheLake I can object to anything I like. I am a woman, I want to be referred to as such. Why should our language be adapted to appease a minority.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:31

Exactly, why is it ok for female people who for whatever reason reject their biological sex reality to complain about "othering" and not being referred to by their preferred terms, but when other female people do it it's handwaved away?

RoyalCorgi · 10/10/2024 10:31

Where does it go next?

It's already gone there. A Lancet cover once referred to "bodies with vaginas" rather than "women". We've also seen, elsewhere, cervix-havers and uterus-havers. Eventually, women just become collections of body parts, while trans-identifying men claim the word "women".

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:37

wincarwoo · 10/10/2024 10:26

@Lady1ntheLake I can object to anything I like. I am a woman, I want to be referred to as such. Why should our language be adapted to appease a minority.

Do minority rights not matter?

The word people is over 700 years old.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:40

PomegranateOfPersephone · 10/10/2024 10:25

From the article linked in my previous post:

Desexing the language of female reproduction has been done with a view to being sensitive to individual needs and as beneficial, kind, and inclusive. Yet, this kindness has delivered unintended consequences that have serious implications for women and children. These include: decreasing overall inclusivity; dehumanizing; including people who should be excluded; being imprecise, inaccurate or misleading; and disembodying and undermining breastfeeding. In addition, avoidance of the term “mother” in its sexed sense, risks reducing recognition and the right to protection of the mother-infant dyad.

Decreases Overall Inclusivity
Avoiding sexed terminology in relation to female reproduction works against the plain language principle of health communication and risks reducing inclusivity for vulnerable groups by making communications more difficult to understand (57). Those who are young, with low literacy or education, with an intellectual disability, from conservative religious backgrounds, or being communicated to in their non-native language are at increased risk of misunderstanding desexed language (5862). However, even women with high levels of education may not be familiar with female reproductive processes and terms of female anatomy and physiology and so may not understand some desexed terms (6365). They may not know, for example, that “a person with a cervix” is a woman and refers to them (59). Translating desexed text into other languages may also be more difficult particularly when there is no direct equivalent to the English sex-neutral “parent” (e.g. Spanish which has only “padre”) (66).

Dehumanizes
Numerous alternative terms for “women” and “mothers” involve references to body parts or physiological processes. Referring to individuals in this reduced, mechanistic way is commonly perceived as “othering” and dehumanizing (67). For example, the term “pregnant woman” identifies the subject as a person experiencing a physiological state, whereas “gestational carrier” or “birther” marginalizes their humanity. Efforts to eliminate dehumanizing language in medical care are longstanding (68), including in relation to women during pregnancy, birth, and new motherhood (67, 6971). Using language that respects childbearing women is imperative given the prevalence of obstetric violence (18, 72, 73). Considering women in relation to males as “non-men” or “non-males”, treats the male body as standard (8) and hearkens back to the sexist Aristotelian conceptualization of women as failed men (74).

Includes People Who Should Be Excluded
Terms such as “parents” and “families” as replacements for “mothers” can inappropriately include fathers and other family members, thus diminishing and invisibilising women (75). Use of “people” and “families” as replacements for “women” can similarly inappropriately include males and other family members. Women have unique experiences, needs and rights in relation to pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding that are not shared with others (18, 7679). It cannot be assumed that a woman's interests will align with those of her husband or partner. This is most clearly illustrated by the issue of domestic violence which often commences or increases during pregnancy and for which the worldwide prevalence ranges from 5 to 63% (80). Women, even when pregnant, do not lose their individual human rights, and should be supported to make autonomous decisions throughout pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. This includes for example, their companion of choice during birth (81) who may or may not be the father of their child. However, text referring to “birthing families” can suggest other family members have rights regarding a woman's decision making during birth. Similarly, text referring to supporting “parents” or “families” to make infant feeding decisions (82) suggests people other than the mother should make decisions regarding breastfeeding (75). This overlooks that partners and family members may directly or indirectly undermine breastfeeding (75, 83). It also obscures the positionality of women as rights-holders and family members as duty-bearers in relation to breastfeeding (76). Terminology that includes others can thus impede the provision of appropriate care and erode the rights of mothers and their infants.

The intent of “additive language” is to encapsulate pregnant and birthing females or female parents as a group but to do so in a way that avoids offense to those who do not wish to be named as women or mothers. However, the addition of terms like “birthing people” or “breastfeeding parents” changes the meanings of “women” and “mothers” from sexed terms that include all female people and all female parents, to gendered terms that may be confusing or inappropriately inclusive. For example, what does the phrase “women and birthing people” actually mean? This construction could be interpreted in a literal way as meaning that “women” are not people. Another interpretation occurs if “women” is meant or read in a gendered sense so including males with the gender identity of “woman” who cannot be pregnant or give birth. It is not always clear from the context. The change in meaning of “women” from a sexed term to a gender identity can also mean that those women who do not have a belief in gender identity as a concept do not see themselves reflected in the gendered use of “women.” Consequently, they may feel objectified by terms referring to processes like “birthing people” [e.g. (84)]. Thus, although sprinkling some “additive language” is often presented as a simple solution, it has its own risks, particularly when there is a need to be specific, to refer only to female people or female parents and to exclude male people or male parents.
Introduces Inaccuracy, Precludes Precision, and

Creates Confusion
Replacing a word with another of different meaning as if they are synonyms makes communications inaccurate or confusing. For example, in a growing number of papers, the severity of COVID-19 disease in pregnant women is being misrepresented by comparing “pregnant people” to “non-pregnant people” (40, 8592) when the comparator in the research in question is “non-pregnant females.” Given the greater severity of COVID-19 disease in males (93), this misrepresentation means readers may under-estimate disease severity in pregnant women. Highly regarded organizations like the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (40) and the Australian Department of Health (85) have made this error, and research containing this error has been published in the eminent New England Journal of Medicine (86). In the Australian Department of Health case, the mistake appeared when a previously published document was updated and a seemingly simple and innocuous “find and replace” undertaken with the word “women” switched with “people.” This change made the statistics on disease severity incorrect (see Supplementary Material 1 for further details). Carelessness may partly explain such errors, but there appears to be no easy way to straightforwardly communicate scientific information about female reproduction without using sexed terms. The misrepresentation of research and health communication during a pandemic ought to raise serious concern about how inappropriately desexing language can undermine public health.

The mother infant dyad concept is offensive to all manner of non traditional families.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:40

They're not the only thing which matters, no. Women are one of the largest groups of structurally oppressed people in the world, if not the largest, and we need the language to advocate for our rights.

wincarwoo · 10/10/2024 10:40

@Lady1ntheLake oh they very much do. They trump everyone else. Hence this thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:43

But I thought the whole basis of the TERF argument is that we are defined by our biology?

No, the feminist argument is that women should have equal opportunities to men, and be equally able to live free from patriarchal oppression.

Not that "we are defined by our biology" but that it shouldn't define our lives.

You've misunderstood.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:44

Pretending biology doesn't exist is not an option for women and girls.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:43

But I thought the whole basis of the TERF argument is that we are defined by our biology?

No, the feminist argument is that women should have equal opportunities to men, and be equally able to live free from patriarchal oppression.

Not that "we are defined by our biology" but that it shouldn't define our lives.

You've misunderstood.

So the definition of a woman is not based on biology? We agree!

PaminaMozart · 10/10/2024 10:46

RoyalCorgi · 10/10/2024 10:31

Where does it go next?

It's already gone there. A Lancet cover once referred to "bodies with vaginas" rather than "women". We've also seen, elsewhere, cervix-havers and uterus-havers. Eventually, women just become collections of body parts, while trans-identifying men claim the word "women".

"On 24 September 2021, The Lancet medical journal highlighted an article on its cover with a single sentence in large text; “Historically, the anatomy and physiology of bodies with vaginas have been neglected.” This statement, in which the word “women” was replaced with the phrase “bodies with vaginas,” is part of a trend to remove sexed terms such as “women” and “mothers” from discussions of female reproduction. The good and important intention behind these changes is sensitivity to, and acknowledgment of, the needs of people who are biologically female and yet do not consider themselves to be women because of their gender identity"

And women who like to be women are just collateral damage...?

This is the LANCET, one of the most respected medical journals in the world!!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:47

That's not what I said. The definition of a woman is absolutely based on biology. An adult female human being. What else would it be based on?

As I said, you've misunderstood.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:48

PaminaMozart · 10/10/2024 10:46

"On 24 September 2021, The Lancet medical journal highlighted an article on its cover with a single sentence in large text; “Historically, the anatomy and physiology of bodies with vaginas have been neglected.” This statement, in which the word “women” was replaced with the phrase “bodies with vaginas,” is part of a trend to remove sexed terms such as “women” and “mothers” from discussions of female reproduction. The good and important intention behind these changes is sensitivity to, and acknowledgment of, the needs of people who are biologically female and yet do not consider themselves to be women because of their gender identity"

And women who like to be women are just collateral damage...?

This is the LANCET, one of the most respected medical journals in the world!!

Edited

How have you been damaged?

wincarwoo · 10/10/2024 10:48

So the definition of a woman is not based on biology? We agree

There's some hard of thinking on this thread.

Lady1ntheLake · 10/10/2024 10:50

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:47

That's not what I said. The definition of a woman is absolutely based on biology. An adult female human being. What else would it be based on?

As I said, you've misunderstood.

So your definition of a woman is all about biology but you object to being referred to by your biological features.

You can see why I might be confused.

loveydoveyloon · 10/10/2024 10:50

Women, gendered female at birth, its on the birth certificate - these are the only gender that can conceive and give birth - this boils my p*ss

You can take as many pills, have as many operations and as much counselling as you want but you will always be what you were gendered at birth.

Are they going to start changing birth certificates because of this. When it asks for mothers name and occupation and fathers name and occupation??? This is so much madness.

So much has already changed in the world to accommodate these people, shoved in our faces, we will comply! Let us have 1 bloody thing!

And, yes, I know I am going to get backlash here but frankly I'm sick of pussy footing around people, i've used the wrong pronouns - i'm sorry Nancy but you wear mens clothes and have a beard and male genitals - I was not aware your pronouns where she/her

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:51

You can see why I might be confused.

I certainly can see that you are. Not sure why though.