How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

[Autumnleavesareslippery]

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

Lets just fuck it and post all 17 of Bewilderness's rules.
https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. 11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. 12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. 13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. 14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent. 15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. 16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves. 17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Good god. Why did Maid's post get deleted?

Its ridiculous tonight.

I used to think it was the c word too - a useful way to describe what's happening in this current zeitgeist (another useful German word which is a mash of 'time' and 'ghost'). However, I think what's happened is really brainwashing. That's probably the most accurate way of describing what has happened to people who believe fervently gender identity.

It just doesn't make sense. Most of the "allies" know that as well. Yet still they think they can force people to toe their ideological line. How inconvenient that we don't and we keep showing up the absurdity of their beliefs.

The statement "trans women are women" is a thought terminating cliche. It's self evidently false and illogical. It's not meant to explain anything, it's meant to silence.

I suspect someone didn't like one of my word choices. I'll try rephrasing.

I'm worried, @Autumnleavesareslippery and @AreTheyOrArentThey about the self-blaming thoughts you have in relation to how wider societal issues like perceptions of feminism and of 'toxic masculinity' play out in your own household and parenting. There is such an intensely strong tendency among mothers to try and find ways of blaming ourselves

A mother's reaction to unreasonable male behaviour, such as sexual harassment or male violence, is not to blame for her son wanting to opt out of being male, any more than Rosa Parks is responsible for Rachel Dolezal wanting to opt out of being white.

It's very much the First Rule of Misogyny to blame a woman for what a man does. This whole idea that women have somehow radicalised men by <checks notes> speaking out against rape and abuse and wanting fair pay is itself a form of misogyny.

There are people monitoring this thread who really don't like it when posters make clear the parallels between blue oysters and a certain social movement.

Of course not.

A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language, often passing as folk wisdom, intended to end an argument and quell cognitive dissonance. Its function is to stop an argument from proceeding further, ending the debate with a cliché rather than a point. Some such clichés are not inherently terminating. They only become so when used to intentionally dismiss dissent or justify fallacious logic.

Firstly. Why use thought terminating cliches? Why do you need them? Why are they important?
Following on from that. Why is censorship on this thread important? Why can't posts stand to allow critical thought? Why not challenge the content of such posts?
Surely there is a point to this

The need to police this thread has to come from somewhere? Why are siblings such a problem here?
What is really going on? As I said throughout this thread, power dynamics and sibling rivalry is a more important factor here than anyone is clearly willing to admit.
Autistic people are particular vulnerable to all this because they struggle with identifying manipulative communication technics. We know of the vulnerability of it with coercive control.
This is such an important thing to be aware of and not. I'm not trying to be an arse about this.
So I ask again. Whats really going on with this thread?

1. Because mothers are the first line of defence between a vulnerable autistic child and those who would seek to harm them. Shutting down discussion on the UK's biggest parenting forum is about shutting down mothers' ability to safeguard.
2. Because this whole "choose your bespoke identity complete with flag, label, and neo-pronouns" youth phenomenon is inherently exclusionary of considering the rights and needs of anyone else. Acknowledging the harm done to siblings would mean acknowledging that this youth phenomenon, and the social movement of dodgy adults pushing it, are harming siblings who are often children at the time.

• Because mothers are the first line of defence between a vulnerable autistic child and those who would seek to harm them. Shutting down discussion on the UK's biggest parenting forum is about shutting down mothers' ability to safeguard.

• Because this whole "choose your bespoke identity complete with flag, label, and neo-pronouns" youth phenomenon is inherently exclusionary of considering the rights and needs of anyone else. Acknowledging the harm done to siblings would mean acknowledging that this youth phenomenon, and the social movement of dodgy adults pushing it, are harming siblings who are often children at the time.

Really good points @MaidOfAle

Aargh MN formatting! Quoting you there

@RedToothBrush I think this discussion on the importance of valuing - and possibly prioritising - sibling needs within a family where another sibling has declared a trans identity is easier to try and censor than to engage with. You notice the usual culprits who have popped on have NOT actually commented on this. There is no acknowledgement of the impact or potential distress this may cause on (often younger) siblings, the displacement when a trans sibling assumes their sexual identity and position in the family hierarchy. No compassion even in passing for people who have shared their experiences on this thread as siblings or for the children like my son. Nothing, just a ‘you need to focus on the trans child/help him with his makeup/blah blah’.

This is because if they show compassion, if they acknowledge the harm caused, then they necessarily have to allow for the dysfunctionality of the act of coming out as trans. Instead they have straw-manned: all families have tensions, require compromise, no-one should have to conform to the will of other family members (by not divorcing or providing grandchildren) etc. Ie the trans child/person should be allowed to be themselves without constraint but, simultaneously, their siblings must suck it up and reframe their bigotry/overcome their discomfort.

And for those of us who are saying no to this, there are our covert moderators reporting our posts and getting them deleted.

Adding to the disgust at deleting the cult word and I've wondered how to report it. I actually know quite a lot about cults so the deletions piss me off, including my own where I outlined very clearly the similarities.

There is no acknowledgement of the impact or potential distress this may cause on (often younger) siblings, the displacement when a trans sibling assumes their sexual identity and position in the family hierarchy. No compassion even in passing for people who have shared their experiences on this thread as siblings or for the children like my son. Nothing, just a ‘you need to focus on the trans child/help him with his makeup/blah blah’.

This is because if they show compassion, if they acknowledge the harm caused, then they necessarily have to allow for the dysfunctionality of the act of coming out as trans. Instead they have straw-manned: all families have tensions, require compromise, no-one should have to conform to the will of other family members (by not divorcing or providing grandchildren) etc. Ie the trans child/person should be allowed to be themselves without constraint but, simultaneously, their siblings must suck it up and reframe their bigotry/overcome their discomfort.

This. Even children must take second place to the "trans" person.

I agree with your point about women having access to things that were traditionally labeled as "men's" and vice versa.

The rhetoric that appropriately describes the extent of sexual violence women face would be closer to "many men are rapists and do not face adequate consequences, and women are disproportionately impacted".

"Men are evil rapists" can be a oversimplification tactic employed by those seeking to muddy the waters and dismiss women's safety issues to paint concerned women as man-haters, as in "women think men are evil rapists, they just hate men, I'm a man but not a rapist!"

This point escapes the minds of a lot of boys and younger men, and it appears that some of them turn to overt misogyny and the other (including those seemingly mild-mannered and gravitating towards conventional norms of femininity) disavowal of their biological sex justified by their aversion to conventional norms of masculinity and male-pattern criminality.

In the age of social media in which reactionary misogyny easily propagates, it's increasingly important to point out to them both approaches are harmful; more positive male role models may help in this regard, the ones who understand that women cannot and should not stop raising awareness of the VWG issue worldwide but that doesn't mean men have to hate women.

THATS the 'c' word that = deletion?! With all the deletions I thought it was the 'other one
AT people!

The thing that struck me was how hard it is for a teenager who has grown up with eg a sister, whose entire childhood life experience was interacting with her - playing, fighting, sharing books, telling stories, comparing experiences - to suddenly be told, no, I'm not your sister, you never had a sister. Is appalling.

Almost worse than losing that sister to death, because at least after bereavement the life experience of that sister's existence is left intact, if wrapped in grief and loss and regret.

But this way leaves the survivor doubting their own whole life experience.

A culture that enforces affirmation of that psychological undermining of a child or teenager is wicked. Schools that enforce affirmation of that are abusive. Survivors need to support each other.

Anyone looking for elegant writing will note that I used the term 'life experience' too often in that post, but I feel so strongly that people, particularly young people, have a right not to be gaslighted into doubting all their memories and senses and - yes - their whole life experience.

Again, respect and sympathy to all of you going through this.

@DeanElderberry what you say of sibs is equally true of parents who have raised a girl or boy and are expected to lose or even rewrite their own history and life experience.

One unexpected shock was having my DC ask me about something they did "when I was little girl". My DC was born a boy and grew up as a boy with no gender questioning until early adulthood. My experience was parenting a boy.

Just wanted to say I'm not someone who has been reporting posts - some wording in a post upthread made me think that perhaps someone thought I was. I prob misunderstood but another post mentioning me has been deleted so the thread has become confusing.

I have nothing but awed respect for RedToothbrush, for all siblings placed in this disastrous position with no acknowledgement of their own needs, and for the strong and intelligent feminist mothers on this thread.

I do think that because my family difficulties turned in a different direction after just a couple of months (son with psychosis desisted from a delusion that led him to identify as trans and then progressed through years of paranoid schizophrenia) I perhaps shouldn't have engaged here as much as I have. It's just that it has been such a deeply moving thread and I carry intensely traumatic memories of that period. It makes me an Ancient Mariner, who grabs the lapels of potential listeners. I haven't come across any other MN thread where I could even begin to do that.

I only posted initially to mention that psychosis can often be somewhat hidden, especially to family members who have become familiar with a child's differences over a long period, and is therefore worth considering (if only to rapidly dismiss) when there is a sudden trans id. Then I got a bit sucked in, but should have bowed out.

I don't understand at all why the c word is a cause for deletion. People may or may not agree with it but it is clearly a framing that is legitimate to discuss. I also don't think that people posting about their own traumatic experiences should have to police their wording, certainly not to the same extent as may be thought to be required in a thread oriented to debate rather than support.

And I don't think this necessarily reflects a deepseated belief on DC's part. It's more like the kind of verbal logic DC follows - if I am a woman now then I was a little girl in the past. I associate that kind of verbal logic with DC's autism.

But very difficult for other family members to navigate. We have our own deep feelings about what these words mean.

Of course, and see also trans widows, but a person who has lived for 40 or 50 years has had a lot of time, much of it spent in the wider world, to build their sense of reality, and of self.

A person who has only lived 15 or 20 years, most of it within the family, is even more vulnerable to that damage.

I'm beginning to see why 'frnh not bearing false witness was one of the big rules.

But if I don't feed the cat my posts will get very odd.

Just wanted to say I'm not someone who has been reporting posts - some wording in a post upthread made me think that perhaps someone thought I was. I prob misunderstood but another post mentioning me has been deleted so the thread has become confusing.

No I don't think anyone thinks it's you.

I was thinking exactly the same. It's worse than bereavement in a way. At least if they had died no one would try to stop you talking about them, having photos of them on display or even so much as mentioning their name. I don't mean to minimise the sibling experience. I realise (now) that it's been much less discussed.