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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
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popeydokey · 09/10/2024 21:08

This reply has been deleted

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CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 21:08

Skyrainlight · 09/10/2024 21:06

How do you report the deletion? I would like to do so too.

I reported the OP post/thread, selected ‘other’ and referenced Redtoothbrush at 20:33 in a detailed rant. Also referenced the fact that an earlier post by another PP - who shall not be named - had been allowed to stand despite derailing the thread (which is about supporting OP/discussing the needs of siblings of trans IDing YPs).

EugenieGrandet · 09/10/2024 21:10

@DoreenonTill8 everyone who knows DD1 now uses the new name and pronouns, because we love and respect him .

But we (the rest of the family) feel it is a lie, DD1 is compelling us to lie and be dishonest, which is a difficult cognitive dissonance especially for people with autism.

But I'm not the only one in this situation unfortunately - every parent and sibling of a trans person will feel similar, conflicting feelings: the love, the loss, the frustration, the fear. I don't know if it's cowardly-ness or self-preservation to not be honest with DD1 all the time, by indulging DD1 in this fantasy/ mockery/ stereotyping dressing up. DD1 knows my position, but we do not discuss our politics together.

Even without trans identities, parents often find it difficult to balance the needs of different children. With this issue, I fear that it will tear our family apart.

Thank you everyone, thank you OP.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 21:11

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SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:11

It's odd which posts are getting deleted while others stand. I think someone must be reporting.

Someone asked me to clarify why I thought we needed a new subforum and this is partly it (not that the new forum was actually my idea but I'd support it).

LGBT Children is quite affirmative in my experience, and I think a support forum in FWR specifically for GC families of trans-identifying people (not necessarily children actually) would mean we could share experiences and support each other without having to deal with the well-meaning and not so well-meaning interventions of people who think our position is intrinsically transphobic.

The Sex & Gender subforum is more about the politics of it rather than feelings and predicaments imo. And LGBT Children deals with wider LBG issues. If a critical mass of people agree I'll appoach MNHQ if people would like me to.

I was feeling extremely isolated before this thread and the shared experiences have really helped.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 21:12

Skyrainlight · 09/10/2024 21:05

Agreed. Transphobic has completely lost it's meaning. It used to have a meaning but now it just means you aren't allowed to disagree with anyone who is trans and apparently according to a some reddit subs you aren't even allowed to not want to sleep with someone who is trans after finding out because that apparently also makes you transphobic. The level of insanity is unbelievably high.

To be clear, I said that the forum (FWR) can at times be transphobic.

To be clear, I am not referring to the expression of GC views generally - that’s why I said at times- but there are multiple threads where, for instance, posters have generalised suggesting all trans women have AGP or similar statements. That is transphobic.

The point I made was that I am not prepared to disclose what would potentially be identifying details on a forum where there are regularly comments like that.

That is not saying that ‘people aren’t allowed to disagree with anyone who is trans’ are transphobic.

popeydokey · 09/10/2024 21:13

And for the record, I assume someone is coming from a place of ignorance not because they claim to disagree with me (yet can't even say what my position is) but because they are genuinely ignorant - they use terms but do not know what they themselves mean by them.

CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 21:13

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:11

It's odd which posts are getting deleted while others stand. I think someone must be reporting.

Someone asked me to clarify why I thought we needed a new subforum and this is partly it (not that the new forum was actually my idea but I'd support it).

LGBT Children is quite affirmative in my experience, and I think a support forum in FWR specifically for GC families of trans-identifying people (not necessarily children actually) would mean we could share experiences and support each other without having to deal with the well-meaning and not so well-meaning interventions of people who think our position is intrinsically transphobic.

The Sex & Gender subforum is more about the politics of it rather than feelings and predicaments imo. And LGBT Children deals with wider LBG issues. If a critical mass of people agree I'll appoach MNHQ if people would like me to.

I was feeling extremely isolated before this thread and the shared experiences have really helped.

Beginning to think we need our own Discord channel…

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/10/2024 21:21

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 21:12

To be clear, I said that the forum (FWR) can at times be transphobic.

To be clear, I am not referring to the expression of GC views generally - that’s why I said at times- but there are multiple threads where, for instance, posters have generalised suggesting all trans women have AGP or similar statements. That is transphobic.

The point I made was that I am not prepared to disclose what would potentially be identifying details on a forum where there are regularly comments like that.

That is not saying that ‘people aren’t allowed to disagree with anyone who is trans’ are transphobic.

What you said was:
I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

And you're still doubling down in the middle of a thread while posters continue to courageously share details of their own family circumstances, dynamics and feelings with courage and openness.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 21:25

This reply has been deleted

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ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 21:26

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/10/2024 21:21

What you said was:
I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

And you're still doubling down in the middle of a thread while posters continue to courageously share details of their own family circumstances, dynamics and feelings with courage and openness.

Yes. That’s what I said. What about my explanation didn’t make sense to you?

I don’t want to post personally identifying details on a forum that sometimes refers to trans women generically as having AGP for instance. Is that difficult to comprehend?

CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 21:28

If anyone would like to link on a Discord forum to discuss the issues here further without censorship, please DM me. I have a link and hopefully we can meet there without offending the T&Cs of MN...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:31

And for the record, I assume someone is coming from a place of ignorance not because they claim to disagree with me (yet can't even say what my position is) but because they are genuinely ignorant - they use terms but do not know what they themselves mean by them.

I agree. This applies to very many people pushing this agenda, especially, but it's of course not exclusive to this subject.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:33

I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

No one has asked for a "CV or family details" or anything of that nature. It's a straw man.

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:34

And if you don't want to join in, then...well, don't.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 21:35

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:34

And if you don't want to join in, then...well, don't.

Well aware I’m NFI, don’t worry, @SophiaCohle!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:46

Someone asked me to clarify why I thought we needed a new subforum and this is partly it (not that the new forum was actually my idea but I'd support it).

LGBT Children is quite affirmative in my experience, and I think a support forum in FWR specifically for GC families of trans-identifying people (not necessarily children actually) would mean we could share experiences and support each other without having to deal with the well-meaning and not so well-meaning interventions of people who think our position is intrinsically transphobic.

The Sex & Gender subforum is more about the politics of it rather than feelings and predicaments imo. And LGBT Children deals with wider LBG issues. If a critical mass of people agree I'll appoach MNHQ if people would like me to.

I was feeling extremely isolated before this thread and the shared experiences have really helped.

I think this thread has shown that the experience of siblings, in particular is one which is often overlooked. I think maybe start a new thread in Site Stuff, rather than tag onto an existing one.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:51

And yes, parents of adult children.

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:54

And trans widows? Or are they catered for elsewhere?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:57

Yes there is a long running series of threads which have led to a campaign by the fantastic group Trans Widows Voices.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:07

Seems as if we are being very much limited in terms of what we are allowed to say. Its almost as if there's a fear we will same something all together 'dangerous'. Women coming together and sharing their experiences is seen as unacceptable. It is not tolerated. It must be controlled.

Can't say I'm terribly surprised if I'm honest. Its not as if its not been done for years on here. We keep being proven as Cassandras.

Really frustruating that MNHQ seem to fall for it every time though.

Every time we seem to make progress in opening up crucial conversions and topic, this happens. This one is particularly important and I hope people see why and I hope they get my point about why you can't reason with people in the grips of this. For parents and siblings carrying this enormous weight of guilt its particularly important. Its not your fault.

When theres a concerted attempt to close it down, it proves the point. Again and again

Telling the truth is never bad or wrong. It is essential to functioning and healthy debate and a society which is dealing with its problems. We have to talk about things we don't want to and we have to talk about unpleasant and difficult subjects.

Honesty is so so important in this. If we can't be honest about how we feel, we are being grossly let down. The rise of disinformation owes a huge amount to a feeling of abuses of power and unpopular opinions being classed as 'unacceptable'. We must continue to be honest. And sincere.

Even if others don't like it.

Mumsnet is crucial in making sure all voices are heard. Don't stop talking here. Even if you also want to talk off site.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 22:21

Telling the truth is never bad or wrong. It is essential to functioning and healthy debate and a society which is dealing with its problems. We have to talk about things we don't want to and we have to talk about unpleasant and difficult subjects.

Honesty is so so important in this. If we can't be honest about how we feel, we are being grossly let down. The rise of disinformation owes a huge amount to a feeling of abuses of power and unpopular opinions being classed as 'unacceptable'. We must continue to be honest. And sincere.

Even if others don't like it.

Fully agree.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:38

Inform yourself Become well-informed by doing your homework. Formulate a plan. Research and understand nefarious organisation and coercise control. Don’t make the mistake of trying to rationally argue. Learn about mind control techniques and which communication strategies are most effective. Helping a person will be a process requiring patience, effort, flexibility, and love.
Trust. Reach out and be warm. Remember the good times. Focus on common values and areas you both enjoy. At first, don’t talk about controversial topics. Avoid “hot topics.” Just try to connect with the other person and have positive interactions. Build credibility and sustain positive interaction. Build a long-term relationship based upon respect, compassion, and love.
Social media and echo chambers. Be mindful of what media you and others are using. Are you fully aware of the counter arguments in order to develop your own thoughts? Encourage this as healthy behaviour generally, not just on difficult topics.

Ask thought-provoking questions while being warm and curious. Be prepared to listen deeply. You will know if you have listened well if you can repeat back to them what they said. Be humble and open to hearing what they say.

Civility. Keep conversations positive and productive whereever possible. Stay resourceful. It is better to end the interaction than to say something counter-productive. It is better to return to the conversation at another time.
Understanding Adopt a general tone of curiosity and interest in their positions. Try to connect them with their identity before extreme beliefs. Remind them of past experiences together. Talk about the connection you once had and how you miss it.
Listen. Don’t “tell” them anything. Help them to make discoveries on their own. Ask open ended questions designed to make them think rather than giving your view. Caution: an abundance of facts won't necessarily help. Do not overwhelm them with information, especially if it attacks the ideology.
Try to get them to look at reality from many different perspectives. This can include many things on different subjects. Use examples of authoritarism and have conversations about it. Share feelings and perceptions, not judgments. Use “I feel” statements. Don’t claim to be “right.” Stick to what your perception is when reflecting back to them. Ask a question and then wait for them to think and respond. Be patient. You do not need to fill silence.

MaidOfAle · 09/10/2024 22:49

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