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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
Anastomosisrex · 30/09/2024 15:37

Chessfan · 30/09/2024 14:16

I literally have zero interest, and why would you think I do?

Wear a dress, wear a spacesuit, what do I care?

You know why trans men feel so pissed and discriminated against? I personally think it's because when they stick on a dress they get 1% of the daily discrimination women have to live with ALL the time. They suddenly aren't favoured in all ways, automatically, as men tend to be, and they presume it's because they're trans. NO you're just getting a taste of what it is to be a woman. Welcome to our world 😆

I often think it's a clumsy attempt to try and frame the new experience and it's often really unhelpful to women.

Oooh I took the huge risk of presenting in this way and experienced toxic masculinity, the way men reject other men for not fitting comfortable norms. That must be exactly what women experience!

No, it really isn't. That's the experience of a man with other men. It's not the experience of women at all. Its an absolute failure to conceptualise women, hear their voices or understand anything except how men see things only relevant in how they affect themselves and other men.

And yet that is used to force team by the likes of Edinburgh Rape Crisis and force women into suffering men invading their spaces on the grounds of 'well you're all experiencing the same thing'.

Anastomosisrex · 30/09/2024 15:39

Not to mention that the 'shame' and 'sissification' stuff is an enormous sexual turn on to plenty of men.

BroFace · 30/09/2024 15:41

Oh dear, I got deleted for describing the three Transwoman I have had to work with or are related to. Other Transwomen are available.

Snowypeaks · 30/09/2024 15:46

Chessfan

You know why trans men feel so pissed and discriminated against? I personally think it's because when they stick on a dress they get 1% of the daily discrimination women have to live with ALL the time. They suddenly aren't favoured in all ways, automatically, as men tend to be, and they presume it's because they're trans. NO you're just getting a taste of what it is to be a woman. Welcome to our world

I don't see this - IMO there is an instant rise in status and they are favoured over other men and of course women. Men aren't told they can use whichever facilities they want, unless they claim to be women. Men's clothing choices are not indiscriminately lauded, unless they claim to be women. Etc, etc. Women don't get this treatment if they claim to be men.

Edited to tag in Chessfan

MattDamon · 30/09/2024 15:48

ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 13:00

No, I think it’s quite clear that some GC posters on MN are very happy to have an opinion without ever actually having spoken to a trans person.

Kind of like how you're very happy to have an opinion without understanding basic biology?

Listen up cis people! Educate yourselves!
ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 15:58

MattDamon · 30/09/2024 15:48

Kind of like how you're very happy to have an opinion without understanding basic biology?

I mean I’m honoured that you’ve taken the time to trawl my posts on other threads.

But I stand by what I said in that post, as you’re well aware what constitutes a woman is a question on which people have different views.

Beowulfa · 30/09/2024 16:04

ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 15:58

I mean I’m honoured that you’ve taken the time to trawl my posts on other threads.

But I stand by what I said in that post, as you’re well aware what constitutes a woman is a question on which people have different views.

People can have different views. Reality carries on regardless. Prostate cancer doesn't give a shit about your pronouns.

JoodyBlueToo · 30/09/2024 16:11

I watched it. It is a bro movie about a bro-romance. Having a DH, sons, and brothers I am not averse to men finding their emotional side and that is what this.

At the beginning, Steele's daughter says she misses have a male role model in her life, but then mutters that she doesn't think it really matters.

A couple of the waitresses address Steele as "Sir" and are corrected by Ferrell. A car drives past and a bloke windows down to shout "you the man" at Ferrell to which he responds "and this is the woman" pointing at Steele.

Ferrell asks Steele about breasts who says they instantly felt "right". Like no teenage girl ever ever experienced on first developing breasts (or a rack, as they call them in the film).

Towards the end of the movie they go to a ramshackle house in a deprived area that Steele had bought for ten thousand dollars so that he could "be a woman" there. They both look at the wreck of a house in despair, that it could come to this!

As I say, it is a bromance. The pair of men are still friends, through and through, as the schmaltzy song, sung by Kristen Wiig, says "until the end". Ferrell buys Steele diamond earrings so he can "feel beautiful".

I could find that quite uplifting - men connecting with their emotions and all and good luck to em. Except I am of the sex that Steele is appropriating, have lived in areas of deprivation, have never had free reign to wander into bars as my "happy place", have been a daughter who has needed her dad. For sure, Steele is welcome to name change, and style change, and live wherever he wants in peace and safety. But the obtuseness of it, not seeing the insult to women. The complete and utter maleness of this film in every frame is apparent.

I do hope that they will read and consider some of the criticism that will follow. It seems to me that the usually well enough off, professional women who support them in this endeavour (these are mainly based in New York where they start their trip) are all perfectly happy to accept this appropriation of womanhood as the price of those well paid jobs and celebrity lifestyle.

The women working as waitresses or in the rough bars of Texas not lapping it all up are ignored or corrected and called hateful. The privilege and cognitive dissonance is obvious. Steele feels it too, and is in tears over it in parts. I actually feel for him a bit, as I do feel for men who can't connect to their emotions, but then do. But this is such a trashing of women. I hope they can see it eventually for what it is.

As a contribution to operation "let them speak" I think it might be valuable. It is always worth watching the other side of the argument to stress test one's own argument. I am more convinced that ever that this needs push back or woman simply become the sex to parody established in our role as bystanders to men (once again).

Why on earth, men can't just be men in dresses I don't know (well I suppose I do).

Anyone else watched it? What did you think?

TWETMIRF · 30/09/2024 16:12

Many people think the Earth is flat, that doesn't mean we change school curriculae to teach that it could be a sphere or flat and you're a bigot for refusing to validate the flat earthers.

Donning the dress of deception does not turn a man into a woman. He shares nothing in common with women that he doesn't also share with men.

FarriersGirl · 30/09/2024 16:12

So the whole of biological science and genetics is simply wrong/made up?

SmudgeButt · 30/09/2024 16:25

Stop referring to me as CIS. I'm a man or I'm a women. Happy if you want to be trans but I have choices too.

BettyBooper · 30/09/2024 16:30

SmudgeButt · 30/09/2024 16:25

Stop referring to me as CIS. I'm a man or I'm a women. Happy if you want to be trans but I have choices too.

If you mean the thread title, I was being sarcastic. I certainly wouldn't actually refer to anyone as cis!

OP posts:
MelodyMalone · 30/09/2024 16:35

Hmmm "flawed but vital viewing". I'll decide what's vital viewing for me, thanks!

JoodyBlueToo · 30/09/2024 16:43

The other thing I thought about it, is that Steele refers to feeling different as a child, he had long hair and unicycled, in a care free way. Nothing of the intervening years when he got married and had his kids and made a successful career for himself.

Then we cut to journals dating back 7 years. So about 2017 when this stuff was starting to rear its head into some form of mass "acceptability".

It reminded me of Hayton saying the reason he transitioned was because he realised that now he could, and therefore he "had" to. Before that he was pushing down the beach ball, as he called it, the curiosity about femaleness.

The "could" refers both to societal acceptance (based on silencing those who don't like it) and the medical industry, and the co-opting in of the younger generation. It is all there, laid out. The things we aren't meant to say.

SmudgeButt · 30/09/2024 16:43

BettyBooper · 30/09/2024 16:30

If you mean the thread title, I was being sarcastic. I certainly wouldn't actually refer to anyone as cis!

Ah - that's ok then - I believe everyone has the choice to be sarcastic!!!

BettyBooper · 30/09/2024 16:49

SmudgeButt · 30/09/2024 16:43

Ah - that's ok then - I believe everyone has the choice to be sarcastic!!!

😆

OP posts:
ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 16:49

FarriersGirl · 30/09/2024 16:12

So the whole of biological science and genetics is simply wrong/made up?

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

And if you take that out of the equation what biology are you tying it to? Having a womb? Reproductive capability?!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/09/2024 16:57

ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 16:49

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

And if you take that out of the equation what biology are you tying it to? Having a womb? Reproductive capability?!

I’ll just stop you before you tick “but what about infertile women eh?” off the bingo card

I am à woman because my body is designed around the production of large gametes and the birthing of children. The fact I can’t do that is because my biology doesn’t work as it should, not because I’m a man

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/09/2024 16:58

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

The moon predates astronomy.

ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 16:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/09/2024 16:58

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

The moon predates astronomy.

And your point is?

JoodyBlueToo · 30/09/2024 17:03

ElleWoods15 · 30/09/2024 16:49

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

And if you take that out of the equation what biology are you tying it to? Having a womb? Reproductive capability?!

Woman is the name we give in English to the female of the genus human. The sex that produces large gametes. Hard to think you might not have come across that. But anyway hope this is helpful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/09/2024 17:06

And your point is?

Genetics is a modern science. As is astronomy give or take a few thousand years. Women and girls are biologically female and the "concept of womanhood" refers to the experience of being female. It has nothing to do with men and boys, the male sex class. It's not scientifically possible to change one's biological sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/09/2024 17:09

There are precisely two human reproductive roles, @ElleWoods15 - the name of the sex class which produces ova is female, and the name of the sex class which produces sperm is male.

borntobequiet · 30/09/2024 17:10

Well the concept of womanhood rather predates genetics!

And is clearly based on biology. See Genesis 5:2. Goodness me.