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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
Chipsintheair · 04/10/2024 20:46

XChrome · 03/10/2024 23:02

I think that being desirable to a man is also part of it. That's the "feeling" of being a woman- validation that they are desirable.

Well, not something I or many other women equate with womanhood, the being desirable idea. Many women feel far from desirable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2024 21:25

Well, not something I or many other women equate with womanhood, the being desirable idea. Many women feel far from desirable.

Men don't see it like that. These are often quite sexist men, who think women have it easy. MRA types.

Chipsintheair · 04/10/2024 23:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2024 21:25

Well, not something I or many other women equate with womanhood, the being desirable idea. Many women feel far from desirable.

Men don't see it like that. These are often quite sexist men, who think women have it easy. MRA types.

I think also, to be fair, there are men who've grown up not being allowed to express stereotypically "feminine" qualities and genuinely believe that having those qualities makes them female.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/10/2024 23:52

I think that's very likely. But the sincerity of their belief doesn't make it any less mistaken.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2024 00:28

I think also, to be fair, there are men who've grown up not being allowed to express stereotypically "feminine" qualities and genuinely believe that having those qualities makes them female.

Yes I agree that's some of them.

TofuTart · 05/10/2024 02:25

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 03/10/2024 16:27

I'm inclined to say (if I ever get the chance) to my son that he can call me a bigot as often and as publicly as he likes, and in return I get to call him "him". Really, I'd just like the quite honest relationship we used to have, when we were each allowed to express our opinions

Going by your username, I'm presuming you have a child (teenager, young adult?) who said they were trans?
If so, why would you do that, as in repeatedly misgender or deadname even if you thought it was a load of crap?!
Way to alienate and make sure they want nothing much to do with you.

XChrome · 05/10/2024 02:34

Chipsintheair · 04/10/2024 20:46

Well, not something I or many other women equate with womanhood, the being desirable idea. Many women feel far from desirable.

I do think some women feel that way when they get validation from men that they are desirable. Those would be the pick me types.
As feminists, we wouldn't because we aren't looking for validation from men and don't base our worth on desirability. Why would we even want to be considered desirable by men when all it does is attract creeps who bother you.

XChrome · 05/10/2024 02:38

Chipsintheair · 04/10/2024 23:27

I think also, to be fair, there are men who've grown up not being allowed to express stereotypically "feminine" qualities and genuinely believe that having those qualities makes them female.

Yes, that is true. I can understand that in kids and teenagers, but a grown man should know better. An adult who believes in sex stereotypes strongly enough to actually claim he's a woman based on them has to be painfully stupid.

BettyFilous · 05/10/2024 06:59

Boiledbeetle · 02/10/2024 21:24

I'm drawing a blank. But then you are talking to someone whose music collection, whilst there is a lot of it, would make proper music fans weep! (I'm particularly attached to my signed copy of Owen Paul's My favourite waste of time)

Thanks for the earworm. Not. 😱

turbonerd · 05/10/2024 08:27

I have to admit I find it way over the top to use the Word «deadname» if you use someone’s earlier name. Nothing and no one is dead here. They’ve just chosen a New name.

One relative chose first one New name, and we all got used to that, then binned it and chose a different one. So not one, but TWO «deadnames» to contend with. If they’d gotten arsey with anyone for getting it wrong I would not have been impressed.
Thankfully I’m now in the stage of life where I don’t remember any names, so can unabashedly Ask for name updates.

MelodyMalone · 05/10/2024 09:25

I do find it a bit over the top and potentially quite hurtful to the parents who chose your name and have always known and loved you by it.

Anyone can choose their own name and ask to be called by it, but the term "deadname" is so harsh.

DeanElderberry · 05/10/2024 09:31

The sincerity of an anorexic person's belief that they are too fat doesn't make the belief true. Beliefs that emerge from mental illness need to be treated with therapy, not with affirmation. Or adulation.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/10/2024 10:01

TofuTart · 05/10/2024 02:25

Going by your username, I'm presuming you have a child (teenager, young adult?) who said they were trans?
If so, why would you do that, as in repeatedly misgender or deadname even if you thought it was a load of crap?!
Way to alienate and make sure they want nothing much to do with you.

You are looking at this entirely from one side. It is unthinkable for me, and has been ever since I was present at his birth, to deny that he is my son. My son, who I have done my (flawed) best for throughout his childhood, teens, and adulthood. The idea that I should obediently repent of my wrong thoughts because he tells me, against all evidence, that he is really a woman ... is ridiculous. You appear very concerned about his feelings, but you also appear to have no concept of my or my wife's pain. The cognitive dissonance of calling him "she" is probably outside your experience.

You talk about "deadnaming". If that term is valid, then it means that we are experiencing a bereavement. But it is a bereavement with no closure, no funeral. It is a bereavement that we are expected to rejoice in, because isn't it wonderful that we now have a daughter! We are to rejoice and express our delight if he starts taking oestrogen. If he goes down the surgical route, how wonderful that "she" is expressing "her" "authentic" self. The harm to his body is to be ignored. But we know the truth, that he is still the man that he was before his thinking was muddled by the highly sexist genderist ideology that he has embraced, the ideology that tells him we hate him if we do not convincingly pretend that he is in some nebulous sense "a woman". The ideology that tells him he must cut himself off from his family, including his wider family. The ideology that makes him a victim.

He can be as "feminine" as anyone else in the world and we will still love him. I appreciate his gentleness. I also recognise that in reality he is, like the rest of us, a mixture of "masculine" and "feminine". I too have some aspects of my personality that some see as "feminine". It doesn't alter the fact that I am male. Just as women have to deal with the reality of being female, both the physical reality and the societal expectations and limitations imposed on them, we (my son and I) have to deal with the reality of being male. He has chosen to deny that reality and through wishful thinking attempt to live his life as a woman. I will not lie to him and tell him that this is all good, and that he has my blessing in this utterly futile exercise. He cannot experience life as a woman, because he is not a woman.

I also worry that he may be led into some of the more sordid reaches of queer theory. There are enough transwomen who clearly are obsessed with unhealthy sexual practices for this to be a valid concern. But I am to affirm his illogical and destructive worldview no matter where it leads? And what about the impact on women? If I pretend he is a woman by using the pronouns he now demands, I am affirming his "right" to be treated as a woman and to be afforded women's rights. I am implicitly saying "you are a woman" and "you have a right to enter women's spaces". I will not do this. Though he can act as he chooses, it is not my role to approve his every choice.

Finally, he is autistic. That means that in some respects he is a vulnerable adult. His current main "special interest" is gender identity. He is highly vulnerable to being led into a more extreme version of genderism. I'm probably autistic too, though undiagnosed. I certainly share many of the traits which led to his diagnosis. I have felt the pull of religious cults. That he is now identifying as part of a grouping which includes advocates of extreme body modification and "unusual" sexual practices is a huge concern. And there are signs that he is being coercively controlled. Do I affirm his illogical belief, or do I stand up for physical reality? Like the story of the Prodigal Son, I am waiting for him to realise that his new friends don't love him as his family do, and for him to escape the illusion and come home.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2024 10:05

Excellent post @RapidOnsetGenderCritic 👏

soupycustard · 05/10/2024 10:14

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic
This really does show the monstrosity of this whole belief system.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 05/10/2024 10:25

Blah, blah, blah.
The author is a ‘Cisgender’ person themselves. A male through and through and the tone of this article couldn’t evidence this fact more! Fuck off. Why do these males demand special status, not happy with all the privileges afforded to being born male but need to transform apparently into a more superior imitation of their crazy 12 year olds idea of a female. Internalised misogyny and homophobia rife as is Autogynophillia.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 10:26

Thank you rapid for sharing your experience.

It is all too easy for some posters to weaponise what they and others consider horrific acts, that of deadnaming and misgendering and to try to shame parents in this situation. They cannot think outside their own narrow belief set.

Some of these posters are the same ones who declare that a woman in a robe in the reception area of WiSpa is more egregious in her actions than a naked male with a semi aroused state gets into a spa bath directly beside a 9 year old girl. All because to them, some people should only ever be affirmed in their identity and anyone who doesn’t must be shamed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2024 10:28

The author is a ‘Cisgender’ person themselves.

Do you mean "transgender"?

TheKeatingFive · 05/10/2024 10:41

You are looking at this entirely from one side. It is unthinkable for me, and has been ever since I was present at his birth, to deny that he is my son. My son, who I have done my (flawed) best for throughout his childhood, teens, and adulthood. The idea that I should obediently repent of my wrong thoughts because he tells me, against all evidence, that he is really a woman ... is ridiculous.

Exactly. Regardless of what's going on in a person's head, they can't expect everyone else to deny their own material reality as a result.

Your experiences and memories are of your son. It is totally out of order for anyone to expect you to deny that reality.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/10/2024 11:44

Both the "deadnaming" and the "misgendering" concepts are manipulative. Third person pronouns are definitely the "property" of the person using them. When I refer to my son, I am referring to him as I perceive him. The pronouns I choose to use, as a shorthand and sometimes for clarity, do not belong to him. They are my words to express my thoughts. Likewise he can use his words when referring to himself, and his words when referring to me or to anyone else. If he wants to call me "that bigot", he is free to do so (he hasn't actually done that as far as I know!) and I am free to object - but if I cut myself off from him because he is rude to me I'm a very fragile person.

The "deadnaming" issue is slightly more complex in my opinion. People have changed their names for many reasons throughout my lifetime, and usually I have no problem with using their new name. It's only with someone very close to me that it even seems that odd. But I know someone who changed name in early adulthood, and it is normal for me to refer to her by her childhood name when thinking of her as a child, and by her adult name when thinking of her as an adult. With my son, it's more difficult. I genuinely do not accept the thinking behind his change of name, at an intellectual level. At an emotional level, it's an alien concept to me as well, and actually quite painful. We chose his name; it is associated with his struggles and triumphs throughout his development. It is the name I associate with my child who I love. I will not be using his new name to refer to the times when he was still using his old name. It jars particularly when people do so. I have not come to a conclusion about my use of his old name that we chose and his new name that he chose.

DeanElderberry · 05/10/2024 11:54

Until recently many women changed their name on marriage. If someone they knew from their earlier life referred to them by their original family name they coped with the trauma without having a hissy fit.

Notaflippinclue · 05/10/2024 12:39

A few problems with TW Veronica Esposito's column in the Guardian.
We are not 'cis' we are women.
He is not a she.
He should not be using the female bathroom because he is male.
You are not 1% of the population.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/10/2024 14:46

Thank you for those beautifully expressed posts @RapidOnsetGenderCritic It is sad that on Mumsnet some people can be so insensitive to how parents feel.

There are a lot of name changes and multiple names in my family, surnames and first names, for historic and religious reasons. Family members are referred to by different names by different people, it can be very confusing in the extended family.

My father's name was chosen from the list of names permitted for Jews by Nazis. along with many family member he changed his name after the family left Germany. Everyone knows him by the new name he chose but his mother always called him by his original name. His original name was also a historic family name. No-one gets to take that from her.

It may be very exciting to imagine that you are a whole new person with a whole new identity and a whole new name, nothing to do with your past and how dare anyonme remind you of it. But that disconnects you from your own past. For some people it's even a way of avoiding responsibility for their past actions. At the very least it's a kind of self-alienation. Not self-realisation at all, just an illusion of self-realisation.

DeanElderberry · 05/10/2024 14:57

The 'found family' or 'chosen family' concept is the perfect set-up to remove that kind of extended family support. Birth families can sometimes be problematic, but they can also be a useful way of understanding ourselves, and for most people gives an element of protection and acceptance not available anywhere else.

Robbing children and young people of that is yet another signal that genderism can be dangerous.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 05/10/2024 15:40

It astounds me that trans allies are telling children and young adults that their parents using their birth name and recognising their birth sex means their parents hate and reject them, and that society recognising their actual sex and saying their sex is fixed but that does not define who they are as a person means society hates them and wants them not to exist, and that they think telling children people hate them just for being who they are makes them the good guys.