John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

[IwantToRetire]

High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.

The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".

Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".

Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".

For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".

Full story https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299

Once again: any business that doesn't know who its customers are deserves to fail.

Even just the headline is confusing, though…
Transmen (ie biological females) may need/want a bra, and are welcome in female spaces (as they are female, regardless of their gender identity and expression).
Transwomen (ie biological males) may want/need a bra, and should be welcomed into a male space that caters for them (as they are male, regardless of how they identify and what surgery they have had).

Female and male bodies are different - regardless of what is added or removed by surgery or hormone intake.

Imagine having to fit a bra for an male who is intact and appears aroused. Could you refuse?

Of course you can refuse. Just the same way you can refuse a woman who is aroused or sexually assaulting you.

I said 'appears aroused'. I assume they would have bottom half clothed? I cannot see that you can refuse without being in for a disciplinary fight. Is there a problem of women who are aroused or sexually assaulting bra fitters/other women in intimate single sex spaces? (The kink of being aroused by being treated as member of opposite sex does seen to be a male thing).

@ReadingWorm when 90% of trans women are intact and we know that sexual predators who are not trans (simply men testing things for gratification) use loopholes to gain access to female only spaces mine is a reasonable question. You might also consider how women often respond to sexual assault or threat.

And I explained you can refuse to serve a trans woman (just as you can’t refuse to serve any customer) who ‘appears aroused’.

Shop workers have the same rights as anyone else.

@ReadingWorm do you work in retail? Do you - even better - have experience of bra fittings and what this entails. I was in my 40s before I was fitted - most people guess bra size. It's an intimate process.

Are you saying yes, fitting trans women for bras = no problem (I agree) and if they get dodgy then you can refuse and stop and there will be no issue even if you work for John Lewis who have not listened to previous staff concerns?

I don't know how you could bring up the fact they were aroused in that situation without also mentioning their male anatomy. Which you can't mention.

I don’t work for John Lewis but I imagine any women refusing to fit a bra for a TW ie a man would be on the receiving end of screams of bigotry and a formal complaint. Given JL track record in this area, I imagine said women would either be sacked or sent for re-educating while JL issued humble heartfelt apologies and devoted their social media to TWAW for several weeks

Males don't need a bra. They don't need to be fitted. If they want one, they can measure themselves at home/ guess, like a lot of women do.

Of course shop workers 'have the same rights as anyone else' but this isn't about rights, is it? Everyone has the right to not be sexuality assaulted - that doesn't stop it happening!

This is about being supported by your employer and wider society to have reasonable boundaries. It's not at all clear that JL would support a woman employee in that situation. What she might consider sexual harassment, ie being stuck in a private space with a strange male (including trans women as they are male) and being expected to fit them for underwear, JL might consider to be 'all in a days work'.

I'm at a loss to see why anyone thinks this isn't a problem.
I can't imagine being stuck in a changing cubicle with a strange man - it would be terrifying.

As usual, it's putting the responsibility for enforcing boundaries in a difficult situation onto the woman, and blaming her if the man transgresses them 'why didn't you say no/run away/ leave him? ' 🤬

Edited to hopefully avoid breaking any rules.

The sort of transwoman who will go for a bra fitting to get off on the intimacy and power imbalance is exactly the sort of, uhh, lady who will scream blue murder all over social media if the fitter says no. And probably get off on that too.

We’ve seen plenty of times that the instinctive response of businesses is to fall over, grovel, and blame the minimum wage employee.

So if I worked as a bra fitter for JL, and depended on that job to pay my bills, I would not feel able to say no, even if the arousal was clearly visible. I’d just get in with it and feel violated after.

Has anyone been able to get a copy of the John Lewis policies on who is able to enter female fitting rooms and toilets? My requests have been ignored so far.

Customers can use whichever they feel most comfortable in........

I'm assuming this hasn't changed.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, if a lowly shop assistant refused to treat a TW on the basis of suspected arousal she’d either be sacked for discriminating against the most vulnerable/ marginalised minority or, if the company dared to stand up for her, they’d be splashed all over social media and receiving threats of legal action within the blink of an eye.

Well that puts me off shopping at JL again.

Didn’t there used to be post of a list of companies that have been taking over by this madness on here?

I haven’t shopped at John Lewis for quite a few years. Not only because of this madness and the way they treat female employees and customers, but also because I still haven’t forgiven them for that advert. Why couldn’t the boy in the advert just have enjoyed dressing up? Why the aggression, trashing the place, the passive Mum and the passive daughter?

It’s happened in the read world? I have a meeting with a woke senior leader in JL later this week. Could you send me a link to the real world example? This really would be the big ‘got ya’ I could use against her in the meeting. Thanks

A lot more TW are likely to want to shop for bras as more go on CSH and grow breasts.

It will be so tricky for bra fitters. As mentioned, it’s an intimate process. You’d have your ’shy’ younger autistic TWs looking for bras. You’d have the other kind. For both the JL fitter is in a small fitting room, up close and personal, generally fitting involves touching their body. No way of knowing their reaction. But certainly participating in their belief system that unequivocally impacts women and girls.

In my JL, which I’ve loved for decades, there was clearly a TW stocking items in the lingerie department. They looked so awkward. Clearly a 6’ something man. Wearing ‘female’ clothes and makeup. They looked uncomfortable and awkward themselves. I’m guessing autistic. Saw them just the once but never again in that department. Seemed really quite unhelpful for them and of course unfair on women shopping.

Feels to me that in this rush to be inclusive, the practical realities were never considered by senior JL staff and the only winners were the JL marketers.

I think there is something about this in the resignation letter. There is certainly stuff about men in the women's staff changing rooms and the lack of consent or even being asked.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis

I’d first like to say that aged 8 I was flashed at by a man whilst walking to a friends house, and aged 12 another friend’s uncle grabbed my breasts and forced a kiss on me, telling me afterwards to keep it a secret or else he’d come after me. This is relevant.
Many years ago, when I was a 15 year old ‘Saturday Girl’ at British Home Stores in Manchester, I had the pleasure of working on the ladies changing room at the back of the store. Every week, at about 4.30, (we closed at 5) a group of men would come in, pick up lots of clothes from the women’s department and proceed to try them all on in the changing room. This room had 6 cubicles with curtains at each one, a central area with a mirror at the end then a right turn to the entrance, so the staff member (me) would be stood at the returns rail actually in the changing rooms unseen from other customers outside unless they actually walked in.
Sometimes there were a couple of men, sometimes 5 or 6. They would prance around in ladies underwear, touch each other up, swap clothes - always chose revealing items that they thought made them look ‘sexy’ 🤢. After a couple of weeks they asked me if I’d take some photos of them. I was 15, terrified of them, terrified of losing my job if I complained. They were clearly aroused by their cross dressing, and using me as a player in their fetish.
Bearing in mind my previous early encounters with men who were sexual abusers, I had absolutely no idea what to do. After about 6 weeks, another member of staff happened to come over to the changing rooms to check I’d tidied them properly at the end of the day. She saw these men - who by then were changed back into their own clothes - and told me off for letting them into the changing rooms! I still sometimes wake up in a cold sweat at the thought of these men.
My point is, men of any age, shape, sexual orientation or predilection for cross sex clothing will NEVER belong in changing rooms designated for women. And by ‘women’ let’s be clear, I mean adult human females. The only reason they would go in there is to feed their fetish. They don’t need bra fittings - how many women do actually have bra fittings? They don’t even need to try clothes on in public. I last used a communal changing room about 10 years ago!
Women should always say NO, and support each other.

What about women who could not touch unknown males for religious reasons? Should they just tolerate it because men’s feelings trump theirs?

This is the case in every high street retailer and has been for years. Some trans men and trans women need to be fitted for bras, so of course they need access to a bra fitting service.

But I’m looking for the ‘real world’ example of a ‘lowly shop assistant’ refusing to serve an aroused man. Just like the example the previous poser gave.

It would really help he out if this real world example was true.

Of course trans men need bras and are welcome in women's fitting rooms - not sure why you've brought that up?

Trans women don't need bras. They want bras. There is a difference.

@ReadingWorm read the resignation letter