John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

[IwantToRetire]

High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.

The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".

Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".

Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".

For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".

Full story https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299

There is (or was at one point) a TW working in the ladies underwear section of JL in Trinity Leeds. It was during Covid and even with a mask on I knew.
DD wanted to #bekind but I said there was no way I was getting into underwear conversations about my teen daughter with a man (to DD, I wasn't rude to the JL staff member)

It’s now been several years since I shopped in my local JL store, letters like that just reinforce my stance. Shame I used to love the store.

this total disregard for women and womes spaces is why I will no longer shop at John Lewis or Waitrose

Good for you. Women need to show that we will not accept our boundaries being trampled over.

@ReadingWorm I think that the examples that you could point out are not exact bra fitting service ones but if you wanted to could at least cause some questioning.

There was the case (Canada) where the guy wanted waxing - intimate service - and pressured worked to help serve him under threat of being sued for discrimination. (I am at work and can't recall his name but I am sure someone will).

There is also the more recent case in the UK of advice from police re trans police being able to search the opposite sex (again intimacy creates a problem) and I think Sex Matters pointed out it was abuse. Again search should find. This was the case that made me think of parallels here. There is also a question about whether women here would want to have their bra fitted by a transwoman.

Those that need bra fittings (those who are unusually shaped, particularly well endowed or have had some form of breast surgery) will know that handling breasts can occur (permission is asked but its at the least awkward). This should be a female only service.

@Soontobe60 gives a very good example of what can happen. I suspect she (and the colleague who threw the men out) would have felt even more uncertain if working in the current JL stores.

They should employ, and train up, a transwoman to do all the transwomen's bra fittings. They'll hate that.

@DadJoke not sure how many TW have breasts which have been grown through hormones? As others have said if you buy your breasts they come in a set size. Whether implanted or free ranging. The biologically produced variety can be extremely variable (even within the same woman), change with things like breastfeeding etc. Many women won't need or use a bra fitter. There really is no reason why a TW should need a bra fitter in the way that women do, and for the reasons that women do, even if their breast tissue is hormonally produced. If they did need one (I imagine that male shoulders and shapes could make bras hard to fit?) then they need a fitter who can advise them. They will have special requirements. The fitter will need special training.

Its not uncommon to book bra fittings in advance (most sales staff in lingerie will not be able to do this). So perhaps someone who has specific experience can be of help here to TW customers and could be offered.

Worked in “intimate apparel” for large retailer. Our bra fitter was older woman, not sweet or kind. She was a bit perfunctory and used a firm hand in her use of the tape, grabbing at cups and straps.
If someone with a cock was asked for help, she would have used her brusque manner and offered something very unsexy and not pandered to a sex pest at all. Or measured and said, that size online only.
Bra fit at your peril!

I’d say the most uncomfortable things that happened was woman returning used / threadbare nightgowns, pants … saying “didn’t wear as expected”. Of course we knew from designs most were not purchased from us, or many years prior. Manager would look in her book and say “not out stock” or, that was from 7 seasons ago, I can offer a refund by post for 99pence. That usually made them leave … not wanting to reveal name and address.

Only just seen this. I think that for some transwomen this would be a good idea. But not - I agree - the sort who are there for the thrill.

I've yet to see any evidence of greater vulnerability to attack in the UK. Or in the EU, now I come to think of it.

I think some people are a bit naive about the reasons men want to visit women's changing rooms.

Here is an account that may be instructive. There are many of them out there.

Kim enjoys hanging out at John Lewis. Content warning.

https://www.youtube.com/@KimWestone/videos

I think you are right and it will be incredibly rare. I also agree that having some special training will help. It’s so rare that I think the letter writer is using it to support her message.

@ReadingWorm saying 'meanwhile back in the real world' means, come back to reality, this is what would happen. It doesn't mean it HAS happened, the poster wasn't referencing an example.

If I were you going into the meeting with the JL rep I would structure my questions starting with a) describe something that actually happened(easy to Google and find examples of tw in women's spaces, could talk about arousal, employee history, religion, varying degrees of female presentation ie. Would a tw with no breasts but imaginary ones or chicken fillets be indulged?)
b) ask what would jL expect an employee to do in this situation
c) ask what would they NOT want an employee to do.
I'd also state alternatives and ask about their objections to these ie. A male fitter for tw in the male changing room.

You are absolutely right that no one person's rights trump another persons.
But lets not be so naive here with the talk of getting on with their lives in prace.
Plenty of transwomen purposefully put themselves in women's spaces either for validation or gratification, and plenty have no qualms about being litigious when their demands are catered to.

That is rather eye opening Arabella.

I had a family member (not in the UK) who went for a bra fitting and had a male videoing in the changing rooms and corridor. She is an assault survivor and came out of the changing room to discover the male videoing her as she came out.

The store did nothing. Nothing at all.

This is not just limited to John Lewis and it is not limited to the UK.

The 'breasts' that men grow when they take hormones or have implants are significantly different to actual female breasts. I think men with these lumps would benefit from a specialist service just for them. Male shoulder size is obviously also a factor, and male body hair is another consideration.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable for anyone to expect women to be involved at all with fitting clothing for this variant of male bodies. It should be men's problem to sort out.

This is like the Jonathan Yaniv case in Canada where the courts ruled that female beauticians were only experienced in waxing female bodies and therefore shouldn't have to wax male bodies.

For the people saying TW need to be fitted for bras etc and use female changing rooms. What about the women who now are unable to use changing rooms (maybe for religious reasons or due to trauma or just because they don't want change with male bodied people)? They have to take all their things home to try them on

I haven’t watched this for the good of my algorithms, but I can imagine. It is well known that many TW are (1) intact (2) sexually interested in women (3) find wearing women’s clothing arousing, I imagine lingerie even more so.

If you care about women’s safety and dignity and do not think women should be compelled to be complicit in what is effectively their own assault, you should accept that women don’t have to measure semi naked male bodied people for bras. I’m sure men can be taught how to do bra fittings for TW.

Like others said, measuring for bras is not something only women can do. So train a few male people to do fittings and they can help the transwomen who need it.

As for the space, there is also no need for it to be in the womens changing rooms, just near the lingerie department. The transwomen can take the bras into the mens to try on, I am sure the lovely male bra fitter can help keep them safe and get them any other sizes to try on.

So if there is no need, there is just want.

There is NO evidence of ANY attacks on TW in male changing rooms or toilets, none, zero, nada. Even when two prominent TW tried to stage manage one it backfired spectacularly, the men just totally ignored the TW, not so much as side eye look.

Your second paragraph - stop trying to use logic when dealing with the demands of this group, there is no logic to be found with any of the arguments put forward by this group. It is solely about this group forcing their demands and wishes, no more, no less.

None of the TWAW supporters ever attempt to answer this.

Thought as much.

Transvestite men have specialist shops that cater to their cross-dressing (e.g. this) - they should be using these instead of demanding access to women's fitting rooms.

It's just yet another example of male dominance behaviour, and one that these high street retailers absolutely should not be enabling.

Just read the resignation letter & have a query.

The former employee mentions her pension. If this is a JL one, would JL be able to take it away from her given that she has made her resignation letter public?

JL not concerned with safeguarding staff or female customers; just with its service to TW.

this is easy to fix. Advertise times when TW can access a bra fitting service, make it discrete and personal. And staff it with the members of the senior leadership team who are very comfortable with the policy.