John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

[IwantToRetire]

High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.

The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".

Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".

Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".

For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".

Full story https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299

Could you ask the ‘woke senior leader’ for an assurance that a John Lewis bra fitter could refuse to serve a trans woman who was making her uncomfortable, without fear of repercussions, @ReadingWorm?

I have to say that, given how they are clearly prioritising the wants of the trans lobby over the safety and dignity of their female staff and customers, I can completely believe that they would discipline any staff member who didn’t feel comfortable fitting a bra on a trans woman.

The one I mentioned earlier approached me and Teen DD in the underwear dept and asked if we needed help

Why the FUCK would a man want a job like that? Just why? Even if they were "genuine" they MUST know that they would be making women and girls extremely uncomfortable in that setting AND that's before even offering to measure them.
I'm sure a lot of people say Yes because they are fearful of the consequences of saying no, so a quick 5 minutes of embarrassment is preferable to being labelled a bigot or a terf.
It's utterly abhorrent.

So now they can not only be permitted to do what 15 years ago a man would have been ARRESTED for doing, they can do it as a job and get PAID to do it.

Fuck this world.

Exactly, there were other things about his behaviour which were as a minimum attention seeking so I had clocked him before he approached us.
To be fair I don't know he was measuring anyone, he might just have been working in that dept.

Both M&S and JL have hired TW as bra fitters.

On what basis? We have the right to freedom of speech/thought/written word. She has not been abusive or insulting or posted untruths.

In M and S in the city near us a transwoman works on women's clothing. He looks like what he is, a man dressed as a woman, wearing make-up and a woman's wig. It is a ridiculous situation. Can we all decide what we want to be and as long as we wear a uniform with the 'dress-up identity' go to work in that role?
DS2 (5) wants to be a dinosaur - we trailed him round on Saturday with him wearing a dinosaur costume underneath his 9 year old brother's football strip. Perhaps he could get a job at John Lewis or M and S .

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

John Lewis - You are dead to me.

John Lewis, a brand
with a man’s name.
A brand, strong and proud,
A brand, men allowed,
John Lewis, a brand
where men gain,

and women don’t matter.

There’s one near me in Prestwich. Some years ago, in 2003, a trans identifying male attempted to rape a female assistant in the shop and was imprisoned. Then he was lauded by the Labour Party.
It’s very interesting how the language used by the BBC in reporting this at the time is very different to what you'd see these days.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3161209.stm
https://transcrimeuk.com/2017/10/30/karen-lawson/

That is truly disturbing.

Just no. Women deserve safety, privacy and dignity from men. All men, even men who identify as women.

So what about the female fitters who don't want to measure transwomen for bras?
Or the other women in the changing room who don't want a male in there while they or their daughters are trying on/being fitted for a bra?

Teach a man how to do the fitting. Job done.

I hope John Lewis will not allow trans "women" to train as bra fitters.

Trans women get their breasts through surgery.

If you undergo surgery to increase your breast size you buy a bra before going to the hospital.

And the bra you buy will not be the type JL sell.

https://andrewpieri.co.uk/blog/best-post-breast-augmentation-bra/

https://www.medasun.co.uk/product-category/bras-after-breast-surgery/

I see the point you're making, but not all trans women have surgery - hormones increase breast tissue at varying rates, so it is actually reasonable that a trans woman would need a bra fitting. In my own circle of friends none of the trans women have had breast surgery.

i do agree that everyone needs to feel safe in this environment though, i know my friends would be mortified if someone felt uncomfortable fitting them. Not sure how we do this, but surely there must be a middle ground?

I don't see how hormones can grow breasts? Males do have some breast tissue but they don't have the milk ducts and adipose tissue.

If you have AAA breasts you don't need a bra.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/103/2/532/4642966

The middle way is to measure at home and order online or go to a shop that is for transvestites.

To be honest I couldn't care less if hormones made men grow breasts as big as that Canadian "ladeeee" teacher's lovely prosthetic wonders.

They still shouldn't expect a woman to be coerced into indulging them for fear of losing their jobs or being branded a bigot.

They can train a special man to measure the special ladies breasts.

I'm sure there would be some complaints from them about that though, something about how they are actually women and are entitled to "same sex" intimate services.
You know, just like actual WOMEN have been saying.

Also, there would be no validation of their ladyness, which I am sure would be a disappointment to them.

Yes. The videos are quite old, otherwise I'd have sent them to the relevant John Lewis to show them what this creep is up to.

Then again, going on past behaviour one can't be sure they wouldn't ask to interview him for their staff magazine.

Yes. That's AGP for you. Hence all the surreptitious filming of himself in the mirror, using the women's toilets, and filming his own legs under the short skirt.

All fodder for his fetish.

And whilst I totally get the comfort of not knowing about any of this, in order to understand why women continue to push back, it's worth drilling down a bit.

This brilliant film is by Mumsnetter TinselAngel and tells you everything you need to know.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5151159-premiere-of-trans-widows-film-on-friday-30th-aug

And no, women do not need to be co-opted into participating in a man's sexual fantasy, ffs.

No one does.

It's quite extraordinary that we are in a place where we're not even allowed to mention it in order to object.

These men are acting out a sexual fetish, whether they have breast implants or grow bumps through hormones.

No shop assistant, male or female, should be coerced into accommodating it.

Although if they did train a man to do it, I strongly suspect the demand would diminish rapidly.

Men don't have breasts. If they are overweight they may have 'moobs'.

This should not be indulged. It is pure madness, and recklessness, to encourage and enable such fetishism.

" Middle ground" often scenarios stem from, and further increase, confusion and the blurring of boundaries.Clarity is what is required. Male people need to use male facilities, or else go to a 'specialist' service that indulges their particular fetish.