Page 6 | "Men's clothes"

FannyCann · 2024-08-30T08:39:02+00:00

This was posted on X https://x.com/hazelappleyard_/status/1828749446030733652?s=46 I'm just shocked how many posters are referring to the image on the left as "men's clothes". It's how I dress most of the time. These are clothes that surely most women will have in their wardrobe at least for casual wear, maybe a more fashionable/tidier version but similar. They are everyday clothes, commonly worn, by both sexes so I suppose if one had to assign a sex to the clothes it would be gender neutral (which isn't a sex obviously, I know, don't bother correcting me). FFS are we truly going back in time - to when? The 1950's? The 1850's? Forget the bloke in a skirt - I don't care, but the implication that everyday casual wear is "men's" has made me fume. Rant over.

JanesLittleGirl · 18/08/2025 19:22

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 13:50

Out of interest, what would you consider reasonable changes that could be made on your "side"?
And what do you think are reasonable changes the other "side" should be making?

Apologies, i did not fully answer your question.
The changes I would like to see on my side is less of the school boy and macho behaviour. And more acceptance of groups within society that need support.
I have three children and acting like a child or macho behaviour has not worked at all.
My daughter came out as lesbian and was frightened to tell me bcause she thought I would be angry. My son said he liked my daughters dresses and said he wanted to try them. I said he couldn't because he would get bullied. Then I thought "what am I doing?". I confessed my love of skirts to my daughter and my son wore a dress to the school disco. He doesnt wear skirts and dresses anymore because of the staring.

What can women do? They can encourge men to broaden their horizons and make sure they know they are no less of a man. A man has to really want to wear skirts and be brave to do it. There's a huge oppressive pressure on men to be manly men. Being a man has nothing to do with clothes so should not be an issue for anyone.

"What can women do?"

Why should women do anything? What has what you want to wear got to do with women?

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 19:36

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/08/2025 18:26

Mate.

Calling us things like "the fairer sex" does not give us confidence in your view of womanhood.
The things you consider to be "captured" by the woman can be split into:

a) sexism: "Girls are naturally soft/feminine/caring/uncompetitive/less technical". These things we experience not as a "prize" we have "captured" but as something reductive imposed upon us externally. Any man who wants to take on that shit is very welcome to it

b) physical: our bodies have different strengths, capabilities and weaknesses. Doesn't matter if we like it or not, that's just life.

c) practical: because of a and b, we face risks and difficulties that men don't (and vice versa I'm sure). So as mitigation we have rights, protections and opportunities that are specific to our sex.

From a woman's perspective, none of those are things we "captured" from men, they are mostly stuff we got stuck with. Complaining that you are left out of sexism when you want to cherry pick the bits you like is a luxury you have exactly because you are not a woman.

You are a man. Trying to get out of the manbox is the wrong way to think about it. You think you are escaping but you are still defining yourself by it, in or out, and that means you are still giving it validity.

The real escape it to expand the manbox by bringing those things you feel excluded from into it. Bring on the Men's skirts, and the Men's crochet group, and the Men's chick flick night and whatever else you are feeling left out of.

I would absolutely applaud that.

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Calling me 'mate' does not give me confidence in your view of men either.
a) not always, i know many soft and caring men. I think it's fairly equal in that regard.
b)Women are born survivors. The stats bear it out.
c) True.
I was only taling about clothes but i know there are a much wider problems on both sides.
I am a man. Happy with it. The manbox is the expections put upon men. It's easy to escape, i just walked away. That doesn't i walked away from my family.
Crochet group and chick flick night? Sounds fun but I'd rather both men and women were there.

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 19:49

JanesLittleGirl · 18/08/2025 19:22

"What can women do?"

Why should women do anything? What has what you want to wear got to do with women?

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I was replying to a question put by another person.

I am wearing what I want to wear. It should not even be noticed, it's bizarre that it enrages people.

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 20:07

GoldenGate · 18/08/2025 17:57

I'm looking for an image posted on Twitter by someone saying these men in skirts give creepy vibes/imitating little girls, those men in skirts don't and are plainly expanding male fashion choices. Instincts always work.

I think you'll find the majority of women (and men) aren't bothered with men in skirts as long as they don't think it MAKES them women.

That's good to hear, thanks.
I have nothing against transgender women or transgender men. Live and let live. It must be so hard to live with that.

From my own perspective i have looked on for too many years and i was sick of my clothes. So much so that I had no care what I wore. Now I take care in what I wear, i coordinate. I don't go everywhere in skirts. I'm often still in trousers, these days though i prefer a nice shirt and jacket and trousers with a decent belt and shoes. I feel better about myself. One guy said to me that I seemed changed. I felt freer. I didn't say anything of course.

I don't advertise my new wardrobe, men especially wouldnt understand. I was seen and had the mick taken out of me by one guy in a big group. "Where's your skirt "
I just said i'm not wearing it today.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/08/2025 20:08

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 19:36

Calling me 'mate' does not give me confidence in your view of men either.
a) not always, i know many soft and caring men. I think it's fairly equal in that regard.
b)Women are born survivors. The stats bear it out.
c) True.
I was only taling about clothes but i know there are a much wider problems on both sides.
I am a man. Happy with it. The manbox is the expections put upon men. It's easy to escape, i just walked away. That doesn't i walked away from my family.
Crochet group and chick flick night? Sounds fun but I'd rather both men and women were there.

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Calling me 'mate' does not give me confidence in your view of men either.

Yes. That's why I did it. Are you learning yet?

a) not always, i know many soft and caring men. I think it's fairly equal in that regard.

Yes. That's the point about sexism. It imposes rules and ideas and constraints onto us because of our sex that are not in fact who we are at all.

But again you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Before you were complaining that women have captured things men want, now you seem to be saying men are not being prevented from being things that are typically considered as "woman"'s.

Are you able to state clearly what it is that you think "ladies" have "captured" that you are excluded from, and who is policing it? Do you even know, or is it just a vague feeling you have?

Or have I been given you too much credit? Is all this fuss really about nothing more that someone tittering at your skirts?

Mate, you can wear skirts. No one cares as long as you don't try and link it to womanhood or women's lives.

Just don't try and tell us our experiences of the men who do link wearing skirts to womanhood and to women's lives are negated simply because you think you and your family aren't that way.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/08/2025 20:10

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 19:49

I was replying to a question put by another person.

I am wearing what I want to wear. It should not even be noticed, it's bizarre that it enrages people.

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Oh mate.

It's not your clothes that annoy women here, it's your patronising.

HTH.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 19/08/2025 00:25

Barleymower · 18/08/2025 18:04

I have not seen anything aspirational about mens clothes in my 60 years. What have seen is the huge pressure on men to be manly and the need to show how good a provider they are. If they fail they are nobody. If we show weakness or feminine attributes we are ridiculed by men and women.
I don't hate women, I see their difficulties. The world is however blind to the plight of men.

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That's not my experience at all. My DW worked; I worked; we were both under pressure to be breadwinners, me when we had children, my DW when I had health problems. I'm not especially "manly", certainly not macho, and no-one seems to have had a problem with that. I have not been ridiculed when I've shown weakness. I do consider it my role to use what male strength I have, and I'm always happy to show off my jar opening ability, though that may be dwindling. I don't know if anyone considers me to have "feminine attributes", and I'm not at all sure what they are.

InMyShowgirlEra · 19/08/2025 00:33

It's been acceptable for a woman to wear men's clothes for so long that clothing traditionally designated as men's wear is now considered unisex because men have always been considered superior to women.

When equality of the sexes began to be more of a "thing" it was about women becoming more like men in order to reap the benefits that maleness entails.

Now, we're saying that equality is being able to express yourself in as masculine or feminine way as you like and still be equal- whether you're wearing a sequined mini dress or a suit and tie.

genandtonic · 19/08/2025 03:01

MarieDeGournay · 30/08/2024 15:47

..and if you look closely, the little girl wearing the sparkly dress and white knee-socks has chest hair and a stubbly chin...

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Omg! I thought it looked like a bloke even though it’s only an outline. And I’m not wearing gamy glasses. That’s amazing how you can just tell.
mind you, no women that I’ve ever seen go round standing like an idiot / little girl parody.

genandtonic · 19/08/2025 03:11

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 31/08/2024 12:12

With my trans identified son, the one thing that really gets to me is that he is wearing clothes designed for a woman's body shape, so he then has to fill out the bust, which means wearing a bra to hold the falsies. If he could wear a dress actually designed for a man, it would be less jarring; and I suspect it would be less likely to feed the dysphoria that he now appears to experience. My fear is that he will feel more and more pressure to conform to "womanly" appearances, and that this will lead to oestrogen and possibly to surgery, all because he has never fitted comfortably into societal expectations. This is speculation on my part, because he has not been able to articulate what it is that has led him onto this path, but it is quite clear that there are now strong expectations for him to conform to a trans stereotype when he spent much of his life managing not to conform to social pressures. All of a sudden, he seems to have left his individuality behind along with some of his critical thinking, as he gets more and more embedded in a cult-like mindset.

Really sorry that this is happening to your son. It happened to our daughter too - she thought she’d be outrageous if she wore a man’s suit.
awful, awful cult.

Barleymower · 19/08/2025 20:14

It's very difficult. I don't dismiss anyones feelings for an instant but there maybe better ways to feel better about their situation.

I know one guy who felt that he needed to completely transform himself. It was a great relief to him when he realised he could be a man and wear the clothes he wanted.
It doesn't help the person if people become enraged and say "you will never be a women!" Mostly likely he knows he can never a women but can bear their current form.
For what it is worth, I would let them experiment with whatever they want to do and help them feel good about themselves but stop short of medical intervention for the timebeing at least. I would also recommend reading some posts on the skirtcafe.org. it is a place which advocates clothing freedom for men.

I'm lucky, I don't have any dysphoria and I'm happy being a man. I do have great sympathy for other communities and I not detered by people practically yelling in my face here.

Apologies for the mixed pronouns, I'm not very good with all that.

Brainworm · 20/08/2025 08:29

Women wearing clothing that is socially coded as masculine isn’t questioned because aligning with the more powerful group makes sense. The exception to this comes from social conservatives who want women to show they ‘know their place’.

Conversely, males who wear clothes coded as feminine themselves are often pitied (to align with the inferior group there must be something wrong with them) or hated (male power is seen to be undermined by males being content to present themselves the way females do).

TRAs usually insist that GC women object to males wearing feminine clothing because of social conservatism. However, the clue is in the name, those critical of gender reject the coding of all clothes and reject to anyone believing that clothes and sex are inter-related. GCs also strongly object to clothes being coded as depicting sexual availability and sexual tantalisation and these being coded as ‘female clothing’. Within this context, it really isn’t difficult to see why females are angered and disgusted by males saying they are female and suggesting/believing that they express this by wearing ‘sissy’ or ‘slutty’ clothing. Again, GC women are not socially conservative and puritan about sexuality, they are objecting to correlating sexual objectification with being female.

Barleymower · 20/08/2025 18:07

quantumbutterfly · 30/08/2024 16:28

As pp have said on this thread and others, wear what you like but it won't change your sex. Being a woman is not a costume or an idea in someone's head, it's a biological reality. A repressive one in far too many places and that's what makes woman face offensive.

When Eddie izzard was a man who liked dressing up I followed his humour, now he's decided it changes his reality enough to entitle him to use

womens's spaces I think he's lost the plot.

Women wearing clothing that is socially coded as masculine isn’t questioned because aligning with the more powerful group makes sense. The exception to this comes from social conservatives who want women to show they ‘know their place’.
I agree that the persons 'running the show' are largely male. This is restricted to the wealthy and powerful. I honestly believe that the average man in street is neither weathy, belonging to a powerful group. This accounts for millions of men who are doing their best to provide in increasingly difficult circumstances. Your average women is in the same predicament.

Conversely, males who wear clothes coded as feminine themselves are often pitied (to align with the inferior group there must be something wrong with them) or hated (male power is seen to be undermined by males being content to present themselves the way females do).
I agree that men who choose to wear feminine clothes are thought to have something wrong with them.
TRAs usually insist that GC women object to males wearing feminine clothing because of social conservatism. However, the clue is in the name, those critical of gender reject the coding of all clothes and reject to anyone believing that clothes and sex are inter-related. GCs also strongly object to clothes being coded as depicting sexual availability and sexual tantalisation and these being coded as ‘female clothing’. Within this context, it really isn’t difficult to see why females are angered and disgusted by males saying they are female and suggesting/believing that they express this by wearing ‘sissy’ or ‘slutty’ clothing. Again, GC women are not socially conservative and puritan about sexuality, they are objecting to correlating sexual objectification with being female.
I also object to coded clothing. I would like to see an end to coded clothes. I am a male and a happy man. I have a loving wife,.I love her and our children. I do not wear feminine clothes to be 'slutty', 'sissy' or feminine.
I wear them because i like them, I always have. I also wear them because i am absolutely fed up with dire state of men clothes which consist of a few sq metres at the back of shops