"Men's clothes"

[FannyCann]

This was posted on X

x.com/hazelappleyard_/status/1828749446030733652?s=46

I'm just shocked how many posters are referring to the image on the left as "men's clothes".
It's how I dress most of the time. These are clothes that surely most women will have in their wardrobe at least for casual wear, maybe a more fashionable/tidier version but similar.
They are everyday clothes, commonly worn, by both sexes so I suppose if one had to assign a sex to the clothes it would be gender neutral (which isn't a sex obviously, I know, don't bother correcting me).

FFS are we truly going back in time - to when? The 1950's? The 1850's?

Forget the bloke in a skirt - I don't care, but the implication that everyday casual wear is "men's" has made me fume.

Rant over.

This guy too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67144375.amp

I don't "worry" about men in skirts any more than any other man.

I don't worry about men who are respectful of women as equal human beings and respectful of our boundaries, but I "worry" about men who exhibit sexist and entitled behaviour around women, and I "worry" about men (and women) who think it is character traits (often including clothing choices) that make people "men" or "women" rather than just the simple fact of ones sex because that's going right back to old fashioned sexism that I thought we were well past by now.

And that applies whatever those men (or women) happen to be wearing.

But since you want to talk about specifically about clothes:

Clothes are just cloths, but they are worn by people, and as you point out people create meanings.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that no man ever wears a skirt or other female coded clothes for sexual reasons.

Obviously I would not suggest that every man who puts on a skirt does so for sexual reasons, but I would not suggest that no men do either.

After all, there's a lot of people in the world. There are people who believe themselves in love with buildings. There are people who think they can talk to the dead. There are people who believe, truly, honestly believe, they are in a reciprocal relationship with a celebrity that have never met in person and send them passionate letters and gifts.

Throughout human history, society after society has constructed all sorts of meanings around clothes. In the case of female-coded clothes, those meanings are often sexual not because the cloth is inherently sexual but because society has coded the female body as a symbol for (ironically) male sexuality and male sexual reactions, and so things associated with the female body become sexualised as well.

So doesn't it seem unlikely to you that there would be no men with fetishes attached to female-coded clothes?

Do you honestly believe, in a world where it's a common joke that anything you can think of it someone somewhere's fetish, not one single man in the world ever puts on female-coded clothes (not that clothes or styles are intrinsically male or female, as many robe-wearing long haired men through history would agree, but nevertheless constructed as such by society) because they give him a sexual frisson?

And in fact, sexual motives aside, do you honestly believe, given how gendered our culture has been, not one single man in the world puts on female-coded clothes (not that clothes or styles are intrinsically male or female, as many robe-wearing long haired men through history would agree, but nevertheless constructed as such by society) specifically because they are women's clothes rather than men's clothes, and the fact that they are woman's rather than men's is significant to him?

And if you do believe there are no such men in the world, how do you explain the men who openly say they do do these things? Are they lying?

(Duplicated post)

It's not about clothes really its about people and peoples preoccupation with labelling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that no man ever wears a skirt or other female coded clothes for sexual reasons.
No of course not, men can wear clothes for sexual reasons. Sex is a part of our lives, we cannot condem men or women for being sexual beings. Fetish? They seem harmless enough, it seems more about dressing up than anything else.
It's an odd situation really that two identical beings with different genitalia are treated so differently from birth. If we were all treated the same the world would be a better place.

And in fact, sexual motives aside, do you honestly believe, given how gendered our culture has been, not one single man in the world puts on female-coded clothes (not that clothes or styles are intrinsically male or female, as many robe-wearing long haired men through history would agree, but nevertheless constructed as such by society) specifically because they are women's clothes rather than men's clothes, and the fact that they are woman's rather than men's is significant to him?

There will be men who wear womens clothes because they are womens clothes for sure. It isn't necessarily a bad thing. Here's why: the man in question may love women dearly and love their beautiful clothes. Should he be condemed for wanting the same for himself?
Then the men who feels sexual in womens clothes. It isn't necessarily a bad thing in a healthy loving relationship.
There are bad people out there but we should not let their actions shape our lives. Be safe but don"t let it get to you and don't condem everyone on the actions of one.

It's been nice talking to you ladies but it's probably time for me to go. I'm a married man with a wife of 20 years and three children. I do my best to love and care for my family. I also have a skirt collection now over numbering over 50. My wife wears some of my skirts and my daughter had one off me practically before it hit the mat. I dont have any dresses as such, my shoulders are too broad. I wear my skirts with shoes and socks and a shirt or tee shirt. I feel very lucky that my family accepts me for who I am without judgement.

God the male skirt wearers who have popped up on this thread have waved all the red flags. It’s an instructive reminder of what the kind of men who make a big deal of wearing ‘women’s’ clothes are like. Despite how creepy they are I hope the posts are allowed to stand

They make my skin crawl. They think we can't see it. Hence fuck off is the only reasoned response.

Or like Mr don’t be judgy, they want to guilt and pressure us into pretending we can’t see it

Well he's gaslit his own wife and daughter enough to supress their judgement, so why not the rest of womankind?

*the man in question may love women dearly and love their beautiful clothes. Should he be condemed for wanting the same for himself?
Then the men who feels sexual in womens clothes. It isn't necessarily a bad thing in a healthy loving relationship. *

Fetish? They seem harmless enough, it seems more about dressing up than anything else.

I wonder what this man's thoughts were when he chose his outfit. Should he be condemned for his choice? Did it demonstrate a loving relationship? Was it the right place for ' harmless dressing up'?

Can you imagine that it is possible for others to have different motivators to you?

https://x.com/sappholives83/status/1954875660725260646

https://www.tiktok.com/@susanltrowe90/video/7535496322883849494

It's an odd situation really that two identical beings with different genitalia are treated so differently from birth. If we were all treated the same the world would be a better place.

And then

the man in question may love women dearly and love their beautiful clothes. Should he be condemed for wanting the same for himself?
Then the men who feels sexual in womens clothes. It isn't necessarily a bad thing in a healthy loving relationship.
There are bad people out there but we should not let their actions shape our lives. Be safe but don"t let it get to you and don't condem everyone on the actions of one.

There is a disconnect between the first and second statements no?

You seem genuine but like many men you are hopelessly naive about the reality of women (female people)'s lives and a little blind to how you are flipping between contradictory statements to justify what you want to do anyway.

That is normal and understandable. But from the perspective of a woman, it's clear that these social justifications are being filled in afterwards.

Going back to It's an odd situation really that two identical beings with different genitalia are treated so differently from birth. If we were all treated the same the world would be a better place, absolutely it would be a better world if that were true. But that is not the world we live in today. Arguably, even in the most utopian fantasy, one where Patriarchy and all the misrepresentation of women that it has wrought and we women still have to deal with had never happened, it could still never be the the case due to our differences in physical strength and the different physical, emotional and social cost and consequences of reproduction.

But certainly, in the non-Utopian reality we actually have to live in it is not the case.

So even while doing what we can to make the world better in the future, we also have the deal with the world as it is today.

And that means acknowledging that fpr we women living in the here and now, society has constructed meanings around women's clothes that are reductive and harmful to women, and women therefore have every moral right to question men who desire to adopt our clothing specifically because it is women's clothing.

Because we know that for too many of these men, maybe not you but enough to spawn pages and pages of porn, fantasy and misogynic rage, behind that desire is a belittling and offensive idea of womanhood, one they feel a desire or compulsion to adopt or inhabit in a way that they do not believe is open to them as men in men's clothes regardless of how skirted, sparkling or soft those clothes may be.

I feel very lucky that my family accepts me for who I am without judgement.

Perhaps you and your family really are those rare unicorns for whom clothing that the rest of society wrongly or rightly codes as "female" genuinely does carry no baggage, no connotation whatsoever of the sex who more usually wears it.

However if that is the case, please be aware that this unusualness also blinds you.

Women have genuine reason to feel discomfort or grievance when men take it upon themselves to redefine what it is to be a woman or reinterpret our experiences as embodied female people moving through life with all that entails including the pressures and meanings overlaid onto what we wear through the lens of their male experience.

If that is not you I am very glad. But please do not take it upon yourself to assume you know better than us how other men treat us when you are not there.

I'd think an adult woman wearing the outfit on the right was oddly dressed - looks like cos playing a Disney girl character. A plain dress with sleeves (or plus cardi/jumper) is a more equitable comparison to woman in joggers and a hoody.

I also have a skirt collection now numbering over 50

But this isn't a fetish. Of course it isn't.

Yeah, that leapt out at me too

I said it was time for me to go and possibly some might good riddance. I think there are a lot of unanswered questions and unless we speak to each other, there will be no hope of change on either side.
To the poster of the above comment where you said that deeming the outfit on the left as "men's wear" makes you fume. The reason is probably that the particular outfit is almost the totality of men's wardrobe. Just go to into Primark and you will see that the men's section is pitful.

Out of interest, what would you consider reasonable changes that could be made on your "side"?

And what do you think are reasonable changes the other "side" should be making?

(I'm 100% in favour of broadening the acceptable palette of men's clothes to include skirts, dresses, soft colours and textures BTW. A bit less Beau Brummell and a bit more George III)

Out of interest, what would you consider reasonable changes that could be made on your "side"?

And what do you think are reasonable changes the other "side" should be making?

(I'm 100% in favour of broadening the acceptable palette of men's clothes to include skirts, dresses, soft colours and textures BTW. A bit less Beau Brummell and a bit more George III)

I'm having awful trouble with user names, if I pop up with navisworks ID, it's still me.

I think that's a good question and I don't have an adequate answer because lots of other problems come into play. The problems seem to stem from gender roles in society. Here goes though..

It should be down to the individual to wear whatever they feel makes them feel like their true self and not worry about the judgments of others. We should not worry about judgements because unless someone is prepared to help them they should stay out of other peoples lives.

I also think we have grown accustomed to some of the extreme clothes available to women and if we see them on a man it hits us with a thump. It's women's right to dress as they choose though.

My own choices are to mix the masculine with the feminine. I am mostly bald and I'm happy to keep it that way. I generally wear a teeshirt or shirt with a jumper.
Now I have opened the door myself I wear quite a lot of skirts. Mostly seasalt, autograph or toast. Yes I have loads of them, they are so cheap in ebay so hard to resist. I'm not a big fan of tights but I do have them for the winter. I don't want to shave my legs so they stay hairy. Everying I have is knee length or longer. I don't know why but i don't like the look of short skirts on me.
I wear leather shoes.

It should be down to the individual to wear whatever they feel makes them feel like their true self and not worry about the judgments of others. We should not worry about judgements because unless someone is prepared to help them they should stay out of other peoples lives.

This is a perfect example of identitarian selfishness.

Unless you live in complete isolation.

Out of interest, what would you consider reasonable changes that could be made on your "side"?
And what do you think are reasonable changes the other "side" should be making?

Apologies, i did not fully answer your question.
The changes I would like to see on my side is less of the school boy and macho behaviour. And more acceptance of groups within society that need support.
I have three children and acting like a child or macho behaviour has not worked at all.
My daughter came out as lesbian and was frightened to tell me bcause she thought I would be angry. My son said he liked my daughters dresses and said he wanted to try them. I said he couldn't because he would get bullied. Then I thought "what am I doing?". I confessed my love of skirts to my daughter and my son wore a dress to the school disco. He doesnt wear skirts and dresses anymore because of the staring.

What can women do? They can encourge men to broaden their horizons and make sure they know they are no less of a man. A man has to really want to wear skirts and be brave to do it. There's a huge oppressive pressure on men to be manly men. Being a man has nothing to do with clothes so should not be an issue for anyone.

I'm cautious with what I say because laying down edicts on what people can and cannot do is not my decision. As long as they cover themselves up I have no issue with what people decide to wear. I have more of a problem with golf umbrellas.

Women now do everything a man does and the whole world cheers. I'm fine with that.

If a man does anything now captured by the fairer sex he is accused of fetish, red flags or attention seeking.

Many men are looking for a way out of the manbox that's all. We are not stepping on anyones toes or making a parady of women. We wear skirts because we like them and in many respects find them more useful and comfortable tham trousers. If anyone wants to gasp and cry freak. We will just have to put up that.

Surely the ladies would applaud this action? Bringing the sexes closer together is in everyones interest.

I haven't 'gas lit' anyone. My wife and daughter throughly support me. Just saying things like that doesn't make it true.

I'm looking for an image posted on Twitter by someone saying these men in skirts give creepy vibes/imitating little girls, those men in skirts don't and are plainly expanding male fashion choices. Instincts always work.

I think you'll find the majority of women (and men) aren't bothered with men in skirts as long as they don't think it MAKES them women.

I have not seen anything aspirational about mens clothes in my 60 years. What have seen is the huge pressure on men to be manly and the need to show how good a provider they are. If they fail they are nobody. If we show weakness or feminine attributes we are ridiculed by men and women.
I don't hate women, I see their difficulties. The world is however blind to the plight of men.

Mate.

• Calling us things like "the fairer sex" does not give us confidence in your view of womanhood.

• The things you consider to be "captured" by the woman can be split into:

a) sexism: "Girls are naturally soft/feminine/caring/uncompetitive/less technical". These things we experience not as a "prize" we have "captured" but as something reductive imposed upon us externally. Any man who wants to take on that shit is very welcome to it

b) physical: our bodies have different strengths, capabilities and weaknesses. Doesn't matter if we like it or not, that's just life.

c) practical: because of a and b, we face risks and difficulties that men don't (and vice versa I'm sure). So as mitigation we have rights, protections and opportunities that are specific to our sex.

From a woman's perspective, none of those are things we "captured" from men, they are mostly stuff we got stuck with. Complaining that you are left out of sexism when you want to cherry pick the bits you like is a luxury you have exactly because you are not a woman.

You are a man. Trying to get out of the manbox is the wrong way to think about it. You think you are escaping but you are still defining yourself by it, in or out, and that means you are still giving it validity.

The real escape it to expand the manbox by bringing those things you feel excluded from into it. Bring on the Men's skirts, and the Men's crochet group, and the Men's chick flick night and whatever else you are feeling left out of.

I would absolutely applaud that.