"Men's clothes"

[FannyCann]

This was posted on X

x.com/hazelappleyard_/status/1828749446030733652?s=46

I'm just shocked how many posters are referring to the image on the left as "men's clothes".
It's how I dress most of the time. These are clothes that surely most women will have in their wardrobe at least for casual wear, maybe a more fashionable/tidier version but similar.
They are everyday clothes, commonly worn, by both sexes so I suppose if one had to assign a sex to the clothes it would be gender neutral (which isn't a sex obviously, I know, don't bother correcting me).

FFS are we truly going back in time - to when? The 1950's? The 1850's?

Forget the bloke in a skirt - I don't care, but the implication that everyday casual wear is "men's" has made me fume.

Rant over.

I always buy men's running shoes - they are a wider fit and also have a higher bodyweight maximum so they work better for me.

Shoes designed for women rarely fit my hobbit hooves comfortably but I do sometimes conform for 'special' outfits ie. weddings/parties and regret it for days later.

So does mine.
<Smug>

I fully believe that the only reason "men's clothes" became unisex over time while women's clothes haven't is misogyny. Women wearing "men's clothes" was seen as aspirational, even if men didn't always like women trying to "rise above their station", but a man wearing "women's clothes" is seen as degrading. I love that men's skirts and dresses are becoming more of a thing, but it's still rare and often made fun of. So many men still view "women's" interests as lesser- music women like, books women like, clothes women like, all of it- if I think about it too hard I just find the whole thing feels insurmountable.

Men in my own family have been nothing short of disgusted by men in skirts- Ncuti Gatwa in Doctor Who, specifically- but wouldn't even care to think about a women in tailored trousers or jeans. The double-standard is ridiculous.

It's similar to the way a girl being a tomboy is tolerated, but a boy being a 'cissy' is seen as negative - it's OK for a girl to try to take on stereotypically male behaviours, but demeaning for a boy to act like a girl.

There are of course many cultures around the world where men wear skirts - like a lot of gender stereotypes, this one varies with time and geography.
So a man in a skirt has lots of different possible 'readings', depending on context.
Outside of Scotland, I'd say a man wearing a skirt in the UK will be read as deliberately appropriating women's dress for some reason, rather than a simple wardrobe choice.

Perhaps not offended, but I would do a double take if I saw a grown adult of either sex wearing what my 5 year old would assemble as an outfit if I let my attention slip of a morning

Men wearing dresses because they like the look of men in dresses or even just the airflow round the knees on a hot day - absolutely fine. Men wearing dresses because they don't think clothing should be gendered and want to challenge that by being a man in supposedly "female" clothes? Go for it.

My line is crossed when a man is wearing "female" clothes because he believes something about that experience means he is experiencing or expressing something other than being a man who happens to be wearing supposedly "female" clothes.

It's interesting that the few comments on here by men are mostly ignored.
As for the comment that there's more choice in "Men's clothes" than "women's clothes" - really? Haven't you seen the difference in size of the mens and womens sections of most clothing stores?
I think the 2 images in the original diagram are unhelpful as the clothes on the left are now considered "unisex" and the clothes on the right are a poor combination. It's a bit staggering how judgemental women are about clothing choices though!
Full disclosure - I'm a bloke who likes to wear skirts especially when it's hot as I like the comfort, the air-flow and the choice. I mostly still choose "boring bloke colours" though like blue and grey/black, and will generally wear them with a t-shirt or normal shirt. I can't help thinking a lot of the gender issues we have today would go away if people in general (both men and women) tolerated boys/men wearing what they choose. I think that, to some extent, men who want to wear a skirt/dress feel that they have to attempt to "pass" in order not to be ridiculed or beaten up.
However, I'm probably wasting my time as doubtless this post will be ignored too!

It seems that only men "cross the line". If a women wears men's clothes, nothing is said because she has the right to express herself as she chooses.
Although there arn't any men's clothes anymore just unisex and women"s clothes.
What about women who wear cute clothes worn by prepubescent girls?
Surly anyone can wear what they want, in the name of equality?

@justsomechap
i actually find it sad that you think gender issues ( such as rape and sexual abuse, belittling of women , men abandoning families? ) would go away if all clothing was less gender/ sex specific - such a simple fix would be lovely though

and how would that work? Seeing as men and women have different body shapes ? Mens arms are longer for example even if the woman is the same height as the man - would men really want slightly short sleeves in their shirts ?

Is that not exactly what I'm saying?

Men can wear whatever they like. They are still men. As soon as they put the clothes on they are men's clothes.

The line is the point where the clothes are no longer just worn as clothes but become signifiers for that man of something (that man has) associated with actual womanhood, the clothes becoming for him the expression of his beliefs about how women live, think, feel or dress, and the wearing of them the manifestation of a belief that through adopting the outward cultural symbols of "women" he can somehow also embody, express or possess that (projected) womanhood.

In short: along as a man in dress accepts he is a man and his wearing of said dress has nothing to do with actual women, it's all good. If he thinks it's anything more than that we are not good because he is by definition projecting his own reductive ideas about women onto us and that is not ok.

Sorry @childofthe607080s - my clumsy phrasing. By "gender issues" I was talking about non-binary and non-GRC trans and clothes. I absolutely abhor the actions you mention but they're not really relevant in a discussion entitled "Men's clothes" and you know they're not what I was referring to.
As for "men and women have different body shapes", I'm sure you're aware that women have a variety of body shapes (5 at a simple level) and that not all clothes marketed for women fit all women well. Since very few companies market skirts and/or dresses for men (some of the designers that do charge eye-watering prices!) we make do with what we can find. As you say, in anything with sleeves they're likely to be too short, and usually the shoulders in a dress will be too narrow and/or the hips too wide, but I'm sure some of you ladies have the same problems.

Ah, pockets and their absence. Normal apparel for both sexes in Fiji is a kilt-like long skirt. This very attractive garment is called a sulu, for both sexes. I thought you might like to know that a man's sulu is called "sulu with pockets" 🤔

Men commenting here are just scolding women cause we've got choices, or getting off on telling us about their 'nether regions'. And you wonder why we ignore the posts.

Well, here's a response. Just fuck off.

A while ago I bought a pair of jeans from the men's section of a charity shop with a waist size in inches. My wife decided they were women's jeans because of the shape. I realised they were women's jeans because the pockets were half as deep as I'm used to!

Clothes are just clothes and yet you say they become something else. Who decides that, you? All sorts of accusations, that by your words he is commiting. It sounds like you are throwing anything you have to hand to stop him being his genuine self. Its only a cloth wrapped around the waist. Let's keep it that way.

You know,.male or female. If you stood in front of someone and told them to eff off you might find yourself in a punch up and rightly so. Prehaps you should leave the debate people who can think of a reasoned response.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

If it's just a cloth, that's all good.

If he thinks it's more than that, if he believes his "women's" clothes remain "women's" clothes even when a man is wearing them and if his enjoyment in wearing those clothes is related to that belief, then he has issues and weird ideas about women and clothes.

As long as we are in agreement that clothes are just clothes, then we are in agreement. If anyone male or female attaches meaning to the clothes, then they not the wearer need to take a serious look at themselves and their motives, not the wearer.

Try reading the first two sentences again. If you properly understand them, then you'll realise mine was a reasoned response.

Yes definitely.

But here's a question - what if it is the wearer who is attaching the meaning to the clothes?

Personally I agree with you that it's a bit silly that clothes should mean anything more than a cloth around your body, but there's a whole industry built around persuading people that their clothes are more than just a cloth so clearly lots of people do choose their clothes to express something about themselves to other people or to be seen as a certain type of person.

Have you not noticed this?

I apologise, let's read your first two sentences again.
"Men commenting here are just scolding women cause we've got choices, or getting off on telling us about their 'nether regions'."
You should accompany that by blowing a raspberry.
And you wonder why we ignore the posts.
No, I wonder why they don't ignore your posts.

There is meaning attached to everything we do.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are suggesting that a male wearer of a skirt is getting gratification.

That's an argument which evokes emotion and fear. There are horrible people out there, male and female. I don't think you have to worry about a man in a skirt (he's got guts). Predators mostly likely dress plainly, wearing a skirt is far to conspicuous.

I’m going to guess that we are in agreement that men in general don’t have breasts and therefore have no need to wear a bra. What’s your feeling about men who wear bras? Or wigs as one of the previous posters on this thread who was so desperate to talk to women here about how his genitals feel in a skirt does?

Well, there's this one.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/london-north/news/man-sentenced-after-sexually-assaulting-women-streets-late-night