‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

Very very sadly I think transmen are expressing misogyny too (as are many anorexic women) damaging their own female bodies as an attack on woman-ness. I like to be friends with people, but while mental illness deserves compassion, it can make it hard to form relationships.

That Caitlynn Jenner seems alright.

I reckon we can call BINGO! now, and probably full house.

We have had so many ‘bigots’, ‘you hate trans people’, ‘you don’t want trans people to exist’, even a weak arsed ‘you believe transwomen are men’. It has been an eyeopener.

There are a handful of gender transitioned males who I quite like, all of them are realistic about not being women (being that you can’t actually be a TW unless you are born male) all of them have come to understand the limits of medical/surgical transition as a treatment for gender dysphoria.

Off the top of my head, Miranda, Fionne, Seven Hex, a new YouTuber with a channel called TheMaryChu.

m.youtube.com/@themarychulive/videos

I loved Wayne/Jayne County back in the day - went to a Madam JoJos gig years ago, Pete Burns was there, I was very fond of Pete Burns and am still saddened now that his low self esteem led to his early death.

Pete Burns was proof that you can wear whatever you like, have whatever feminising surgeries you can afford (even very unwise ones) and still be a bloke.

A unique bloke with a quick and viscous humour. Rip (sic) Pete.

I don't know LunaNorth, I really don't know. Are there trans women who don't parody women, who don't colonise the female experience and claim it to be their own? Trans women are trans women, I can no more identify with their experience than they with mine. I can respect them as trans, can they respect my boundary?

Going back to the original post, demure and mindful. Interesting that the BBC illustrated this with a picture of Diana - that says it all. Because, of course, demure and mindful is suppression of the self, often due to trauma. Diana sums it up. Another poster this week was asking if one can lose one's identity because of trauma - yes, we become demure and mindful. Women who have lived a life of abuse, even the 'low level' gaslighting we're all subjected to can become demure and mindful in response. Fucking hilarious isn't it? Silly girls...

Women who have lived a life of abuse, even the 'low level' gaslighting we're all subjected to can become demure and mindful in response. Fucking hilarious isn't it?

This. And I bet that very context is in the back of many women's minds when they read those words.

Policing women is all about control.

@Katkins17 its not a joke about women though is it? They are taking the piss out of themselves! Their own behaviour, not the behaviour of women.

This whole thread is people frothing at the mouth about something they haven’t even seen. It’s ridiculous.

I see no frothing. I guess it depends on the view.

If people are frequently saying these things to you, doesn't that suggest there might actually be some truth in it?

I'm sorry but no human being can possibly reach this far without pulling a tendon.

The funny joke is that no transwoman is expected to be demure and mindful.

Because while the cry is "TWAW", they don't get policed like women, or treated like women and can wear and do what the fuck they like (and don't they just).

If people are frequently saying that biology matters, doesn’t that suggest there might be some truth to it?

Even if you believe that they're male - what precisely is the problem with them wearing make up?

No one is expecting you to fawn. It's a meme that's gone viral. Feel free to utterly ignore it if it's not for you.

The only thing I'm 'frothing' about is the what is in the BBC News article, which I have seen.

No. Because people also say things like male people are ‘women’. Just having people repeat accusations for not complying to their personal philosophical belief also doesn’t make either the accusations or the statement about someone’s identity true.

Nope.

Because it’s not lots of people saying it, It’s actually very few people who are saying the same thing over and over, changing MN usernames periodically.

Right, *FreedomDogs’?

The vast majority of humans worldwide know that TW are not W, because they are male.

Just highlighting this without comment.

@Helleofabore

You cannot seem to address what people are discussing. You have misrepresented the argument completely. It is like you cannot correctly characterise the points being raised at all.

Is this really your only conflict-solving solution? You used the exact same words and technique with me a few days ago. Why can't you just debate civilly?

They are male, that is biological fact. They can wear all the make up they want but taking the piss out of it for a laugh is something they can only do because they are male. If a female did this they would be derided and judged for it. Can you really not see the inequality?

WTF is uncivil about Helle’s posts?

Pete Burns gif!

Drag is all about performing shallow, and often demeaning, gender. And even if it had been said by an actual woman it would still be an utterly shallow and conformist 'meme'

Please explain how biology is relevant in this context? Does this person's chromosomes or genitals mean they can't put on make up or make a joke about it?

She's not a drag queen.

Oh dear. Really? I did debate your points with you civilly, you then took offense and claimed victimhood amongst other things.

Also, on the Khelif thread you entered and repeated the same tropish misinformation that had already been covered in the thread, I believe.

And here you are supporting a poster who has repeatedly described the discussion as bigoted, hateful and kept arguing points no one has made.