‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

It's tiresome to be told that this section is an echo chamber when TRAs pretty much run the whole of Reddit. And no doubt other parts of the internet that I haven't even tried looking at. But women are not allowed to have even a teeny corner of the internet to discuss things without constant attempts to derail threads and prevent discussion.

No, I was asking a question. And you have clarified.

I will ask one further, do you think that Jenner should have won a prestigious women’s award that should be given to women who have achieved exceptional things despite a lifetime to sex discrimination? If so, why? Why should a male person who achieved great things as a male be then awarded a female achievement ?

And those saying it is just a joke, could you please answer these questions.

What part of this person being male and mocking female oppressive stereotypes while using female stereotypes to define themselves is to be celebrated?

Is it to be celebrated because it is a person with a transgender identity rather than a male comedian? Is it to be celebrated because it is a person with a transgender identity rather than a drag artist?

I doubt Angela Merkel identifies as a woman, she just is one.

What is living life as a woman?

I agree it’s a nonsense question. How can I give you an example when we’re all different people.

Well, in order to definitively say that a born male is living life as a woman you must have some criteria to base that on, what are those criteria?

No-one can live life as something they are not. No amount of adherence to sexist outdated stereotypes, cosmetic, chemical or surgical intervention can achieve that.

you are happy to be quite rude to people who don't share your belief that Jools from the article or Laverne Cox are women.

but you seem unable to explain what you believe a woman is

can I suggest to you that your beliefs are not coherent and you cannot explain them?

and that you should therefore reconsider your attitude towards people who don't share your beliefs?

That's the point really. Women live all kinds of different lives but the one thing they all have in common is that they're female.

I’m a woman. Biologically female with XX chromosomes. I’m struggling to know if I ‘live as a woman’. I’m confused as to what that means. Because if I think of my day to day life, I can’t pinpoint anything much that I do that is different to DH, who is male. We both go about our day in a very similar way, we like similar things an operate in a similar way.

The only differences between us are that I menstruate and therefore need to use sanitary protection and he does not. This is because my sex - not my gender - is female. So it’s not something a transwoman could have in common with me.

So if my only point of difference with my male DH is that of a sex-based one, how do I know if I’m living as a woman and how could a transwoman live as a woman? I’m baffled. Please can you explain @ElleWoods15 ?

I already set out my beliefs. There’s nothing incoherent in them. They are women because they identify and live as women.

What I can’t do it tell you that Angela Merkel and Laverne Cox are both women because they share a certain set of characteristics (they both wear pink, they both like high heels etc) because those common characteristics don’t exist- irrespective of whether women are assigned female at birth, or whether they transition.

You’re not a woman ‘because you menstruate’. What about those who’ve never for whatever reason been able to menstruate? Those who’ve had hysterectomies, those out the other side of menopause.

But how do they live as women? Can you explain what that means?

And what is it that makes Angela Merkel and Laverne Cox not men?

Yes. The only way for someone to be a woman is to be born a female person and to reach pubertal maturity.

There are as many ways to be a female as there are and have been and will be female people. The only thing we have in common is our sexed body.

No male person can have a lived experience as a female person, always as a male person who is living as they conceptualise a female would live. Ie. Their personal opinion of how a female person lives based on nothing but either the ‘non-male’ stereotypes or the projected female stereotypes.

It is really quite hard to comprehend how it can be anything but.

I'm a woman because my body is built around the production of large gametes. So what do I have in common with a male who states they are a woman?

But they don’t.

They live as how they envision women live.

The only thing in common for female people is how they navigate life with their female sexed body and how they navigate how society treats them for having a female sexed body.

Hence, a male who identifies as a woman still navigates life as a male with a male body. Regardless of their hormones, or their extreme body modifications or their behavioral choices.

That’s really offensive@Helleofabore. Trans women don’t live ‘how they envision women live’. You make it sound like trans women are in some way role playing.

oh my goodness, do you really believe you have set out your beliefs? you really haven't you know

you can't say that a child is anyone who identifies as a child, or a doctor is anyone who identifies as a doctor. those things have defining characteristics.

there are defining characteristics that all women share and that is how we know they are women. you know what they are really too, you're just pretending not to. If you wanted a surrogate you sure as heck would not be approaching Laverne Cox.

if they're not role playing, you will easily be able to explain the things they do that demonstrate to you that they are authentically living as women

Agreed. If you read my post back you will see that I didn’t say that I’m a woman because I menstruate. It was merely an observation of the only difference between us, ie the only point of difference in the way I live when compared to how DH lives. There isn’t another difference as far as I can tell.

So, like I said, I’m confused about what precisely it means to ‘live as a woman’. Can you list out the characteristics of living as a woman for me, so I can understand?

The fact you don’t like my views doesn’t mean I haven’t set them out.

I don’t think the ability to be a surrogate for someone is a fundamental pillar of being a woman, sorry!

I'm sure all the women in Afghanistan would love to be able to just decide to identify as men. Sadly for them, they can't. This whole thing feels like it's just a game for the TRAs. It's actually quite revolting.

It is incoherent ElleWoods15 what are they identifying with? What are the criteria?

The only people who are women are those born female irrespective of how they live their lives with that sexed body. There is no identifying in any of that if there was there would sure as shit be a helluva lot of women the world over identifying out of being women.

I doubt your life as a woman @BunfightBetty is remotely similar to mine. There isn’t a prescribed list of characteristics that one has to conform to as far as I’m aware.

no, the fact that you have not set out your views is what means you haven't set them out

just give me a few bullet points of characteristics that all women share, or things that living as a woman involves

you are very sure you're right - this should be easy for you

IDENTIFYING AS A WOMAN.