‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

And before anyone says, yes lots of women don't 'get it's either. The difference is they're not twice my strength and pumped full of testosterone. That's the privilege of men. And with privilege comes responsibility - a useful principle worth reviving.

Frankly, what is truly oppressive and offensive is people referring to male people as women. How offensive can you get? How insulting that one might think that a woman is nothing but an fantasy image in someone's head?

The terms 'man' and 'woman' are rooted in biological reality not in social or idealistic constructs......that is what the concept of gender is...and is what gender identity' is. A made up ideological construct with no roots in material reality.

If women did not exist, then what would it be that male people wanted to 'transition' to?

Gender is purely social and performative. Sex is reality.

People were pointing out that Khelif is clearly a biological male - not trying to 'shame' them. A biological male who was mistakenly registered as a female at birth due to the presence of a DSD. A tough fate, but it doesn't make the reality or the facts of the condition less true.

It never is.

Indeed.

I'm amused at the level of chutzpah to insist in FWR of all places that men can be women if they say they are.

Rather more than one deletion on that thread. It is almost like that poster cannot do anything but name call and use shaming tactics.

I think we would really like to see engagement and discussion but not tonight clearly.

The amount of slurs being used against women who disagree seems to have got the thread deleted. I guess that is one way to silence women.

Thread gone now, it became like Swiss Cheese. I will leave it to you to guess which poster had the most posts deleted.

I saw. I saw the name calling. It is remarkable, isn’t it. How posters declare they are all for civil debate yet can’t stop name calling others.

Yeah I was quite shocked people thought it was ok to call me an arsehole (direct quote) too. Not exactly civil debate.

This from the poster who's told another poster to fuck off on this thread?

Pot, kettle, black.

In what sense.

I’ve been called an arsehole this evening, and yet apparently I am the one name calling. Please explain.

My words were ‘fuck off with that shit’ after being told to ‘calm down’ by someone who kept insisting I was angry, furious in fact, when I was not.

I did not tell them to ‘fuck off’ the forum. Merely to stop telling me to ‘calm down’ and making out I was angry. Please at least get the accusation accurate.

Why do you think your posts were deleted? I saw post after post of name calling women who disagreed with you. Or maybe you don’t consider slurs ‘name calling’.

That is so much more civil @Helleofabore.

I really don’t think you can judge civil at this point.

ace, you're back Elle

you are very sure you're right about this, to the point where you're very dismissive of people who don't share your beliefs, so I'm hoping it will be easy for you to explain what makes Caitlyn Jenner and Angela Merkel both women.

You mentioned wanting a debate earlier - I think that would help.

Hello all,

This thread is becoming a TAAT and we will need to remove it if it continues.

We ask, again, that you bear in mind our guidelines on civil debate when posting:

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

In the above, we say that:

We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists or anyone else (except perhaps trolls). If you can abide by our rules – the spirit and not just the letter – we want you to feel you can be a part of the community.

We also say that,

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

Both of the above apply to gender-critical feminists, and also to posters who don't identify as such and may hold opposing views to gender-critical feminists. We don't tolerate personal attacks or chasing off. We will take action against posters who repeatedly breach our guidelines.

If you think a post breaks our guidelines, please report rather than posting on the thread itself.

Thanks everyone.

They both identify as women.

They both also live their lives as women @BernardBlacksMolluscs

To me it’s simple as that.

Oh I see, it was a different kind of "fuck off" which has a different meaning in your world. Understood. Not hypocritical at all.