‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

So your aim is to shame posters on this thread for correctly sexing this male person.

Considering this week alone we have seen a country declare there can be no place that can exclude a male who has declared they are female person and that they should always be treated as a female person. We can now see just how harmful such an ideological view can be when laws are formed where 'gender' is placed at the same priority to sex, so please understand that no one has to comply to your philosophical belief.

No one has to call a male person a woman, or not refer to them as a male person (particularly when it is an important distinction to make), or use preferred pronoun over sex based pronouns.

And we have recently been shown just how meaningless the language that some people demand is and how it IS based on philosophical belief. Why?

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one. No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you (general you) into complying tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

You are totally free to choose to base your own language on using the sometimes centuries old established meanings of words and the established protocols of language that are based around sex. Not someone's identity.

And secondly, the situation with the male boxers has shown us that the word 'cis' is also meaningless and based on someone's philosophical belief.

In fact, because we were reminded that 'cis' means any person 'assigned' female at birth, this also includes those male people who have been incorrectly registered as female. And I am talking about the male people who have differences of sex development where their bodies are capable of processing the testosterone that their testes produce.

What this means is that there is now no words to describe a unique group of female people that reliably means just those female people, either pre or post puberty, who have bodies that are female sexed.

So, Cis is a meaningless word. Using preferred language around describing someone is based on someone else's demand to believe in their philosophical belief. It is purely up to you whether you choose to or not.

Legal identity or not. Legal identity is not relevant to the material reality that male people cannot ever be more than their own conceptualisation of what a female person is.

What you don't get to do, is to shame others for not supporting your belief if they do not choose to.

I have read variations of that phrase many times over the last few days: “a woman, who happens to be trans”.

Is it the new mantra?

bollocks

Probably, the need to obfuscate, confuse and hoodwink the public is paramount but it all falls apart when the public see the evidence with their own eyes.

Exactly.
Much more succinctly said than my effort.

@Helleofabore I think we can both agree that shaming others isn’t a constructive way to carry on. I wasn’t seeking to shame, I was pointing out that some of what’s been said is incorrect and is actually pretty offensive.

Take a look back through this thread and also those that have popped up over the last couple of days about Roxie Tickle. Or previous threads about Imani Khelif. The amount of vitriol that has been poured on these women, particularly focussed around their looks, seeking to shame them, is disgusting.

So I’m more than happy if we can all agree that seeking to shame others shouldn’t have a place in this kind of discussion. We can agree on that at least.

There's nothing intrinsically shameful about being male.

So a woman, who happens to be trans

Or, more accurately, So a man, who happens to be trans

Oh don’t be daft. “Assigned” male? Did the doctor/mid wife just take a random guess? It really isn’t how it works, this is unscientific nonsense.

Observed to be male and still is male. But is immersed in their own fiction that they are female. Or prefer to “present” as female. And prefer to be called “she”. That’s all fine but doesn’t make him female. Or a woman.

No was was seeking to shame Khelif and Lin for their looks. The shame was allowing men to punch women in the face.
No one was seeking to shame Roxy Tickle about his looks. The shame was a man trying to force himself into a female only space

So care to say what is “offensive”, and what is not fact?

Legal identity does not reflect the material reality that a male
person remains male and can not ever be more than their personal conceptualisation of what it means to be female. Is this not fact?

The discussion around Khelif and Ali was discussing male body cues derived through male puberty. It is entirely relevant to the discussion around whether those male athletes should be punching female people. There was some discussion that Khelif should not have to have had a photoshopped promotional video done in any attempt to convince people that Khelif was female.

And the entire point about Tickle was that the app could correctly categorized Tickle as male. Because they are male, despite legally being able to change identification. Still doesn’t change the material reality. Tickle is a male who has changed their identity. Is that also a fact?

You calling them women, is purely your philosophical belief. We are not in a country that enforces compliance to that belief.

This is a man who literally fetishises womanhood. He thinks it’s something he can buy and put on.

Those saying it’s just TikTok nonsense and the world will have moved on in 5 minutes are absolutely right. However while I can’t stop men being weird about women and sexist but I don’t have to pretend I like it or think it’s funny.

Read some of the threads on here about these women before confidently asserting ‘no one’ was trying to shame them for their looks.

The amount of vitriol that has been poured on these women, particularly focussed around their looks, seeking to shame them, is disgusting.

Where on this thread has anyone said anything about Jools Lebron's looks? Show me the evidence of this. You say it is disgusting to shame people for their looks and yet are supporting Jools Lebron for doing exactly that by supposedly joking about the way women present themselves. You want it both ways - TW must not be criticised for the way they present themselves but are free to criticise women for how they present themselves. Such hypocrisy and sacred caste dogma.

I have read them. Are you talking about the discussion of the ridiculous filtered Khelif PR campaign or do you think that posters pointing out that they are men and we can see that they have male bodies is trying to shame them for their looks

One very prominent TW is notorious for criticising and shaming the way women look, behave, speak perhaps you'd like to pop over and tell them how disgusting they are for doing so Elle. I know you won't though because it is only women who must be scolded.

I believe quite a few of us were active on just about all those threads about the two male boxers.

The discussion was around the virilised features of both of them.

Given no one will answer about Rachel Dolezal...

If this was a British Muslim transwoman mocking how women are expected to behave in the Middle East, would that be considered a joke?

and further to the ‘it’s just TikTok’ argument: it seems to me that discussing the way a male media personality depicts women is kind of what feminist talk boards are for. I get that it’s trivial but not every conversation can be about the plight of Afghan women, it would be too fucking depressing

Against all expectations and stereotypes
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5150353-if-an-85-year-old-man-can-do-it-so-can-i

I think the evidence of the offensive posting is probs in the fact that there are plenty of deleted comments on such threads (just as this one has).

Can I say how totally astonished I am that it wasn't actually a "final post".

A lot of the deleted comments were by posters who were arguing that Khelif and Lin were female so yes I do think it shows there is a problem with offensive posters

See, this bit reminds me of reading about the difficulty of having ‘professional hair’ and so on for black women, that I’d been in ignorant bliss about. Obviously I would never join in that conversation because my experience or opinion is in no way relevant as I’m not a woman of colour.
Could you imagine how inappropriate it would be for me to joke about that?