‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

Forced teaming. I like that

The opposing voices always manage to slide over actually addressing the issues though.

Rather than demonstrating the flaw in Helle’s case, opposing voices tend to settle for accusations of bigotry and so on. No actual discussion that illuminates the thinking behind your opinion.

Helle addresses you and Dogs similarly because you and Dogs have an uncannily similar debate style.

Does she perceive it in most opposing voices on threads that she then attacks in exactly the same way? Perhaps she has a Word document that she just copies and pastes from as the similarity is uncanny.

Perhaps most of the people that post on these threads to call us all bigots don't really have much of a coherent argument and can't explain why we should believe males are women?

Because when you spell out your own stance you might see how much you inherently know these individuals are male.

You know it. It doesn't matter what we say, do, or believe or don't do. You know this individual is male.

And that alone makes you a bigot in the eyes of some.

You've been given the opportunity to debate yourself - you should seize it with both hands instead of run away from it screaming "bigot".

So, I didn't realise that the person was trans. I do think that that alters things significantly for me. It's one thing being female or from a certain group and being self depreciating and ironic, but when that person is from the same cohort as the oppressors, then making jokes about the oppressed, even if intended to be ironic, is tone deaf.

I think that @Helleofabore has done a great job of clearly and intelligently explaining the issues.

You cannot seem to address what people are discussing. You have misrepresented the argument completely. It is like you cannot correctly characterise the points being raised at all.

Care to point out what is rude about this considering what the poster had posted repeatedly beforehand.

And I am not doing it to put posters off posting. I do it to point out that a poster is doubling down on their points while accusing me and others of bigotry and hatred when there is no bigotry and hatred in the actual points that we are making. The poster had misrepresented he points I made to make those accusations.

Or did you miss that?

Do you think describing a poster as hateful and bigoted while claiming that the poster has an opinion that they have not is ‘civil’?

In my experience trans rights activists and their supporters have precisely one argument as to why I should think of some males as women.

"Because it's their "identity" and you're mean not to".

They know it's all about stereotypes so they avoid anything to do with that.

She’s not telling you, or any other woman, to be demure and mindful. Absolutely no need to “bridle” or be offended 🙄

Yes, funny how the joke's always on women, isn't it? Fucking hilarious.

Women are sick of it.

I thought it was just a joke but I've only seen dogs on tiktok either being very well behaved or very badly behaved, with their owners saying 'very demure, very mindful'. Clearly it was lost on me as I didn't know where it originated from, probably like most people.

I suggest you go back to the thread where you posted about far right behaviour and see what I said and your reaction to that post.

Then try discussing the many valid points instead of squirming away, deflecting, and calling everyone else a meanie. No need to say Helle refused to debate civilly when you refused to debate at all. Answer our questions properly, you never know you might actually convince us to change our minds. It has been done before you know.

And to go back to answering our questions properly (not aimed at you personally but so you can see how our questions get ignored) I see nobody has answered mine except one, who appears to have given the wrong information. Funny that.

I'm 57 and I understood this, partially because I actually read the BBC article.

It IS just a joke.

Its just a joke. Can't you bigots take a male laughing at the stupid things you do (really need that sarcasm emoji)

Oh come on, you’re not fooling anyone with the faux naivety.

Only a fool could fail to realise there is a direct equivalence between somebody wanting to claim an identity of a sex they’re not with somebody wanting to claim an identity of a race they’re not.

Anybody who can’t see the equivalence must be so unintelligent that they’re not worth the time of debating with. Is that you? Or would you care to engage with the substance of the query instead of resorting to snide comments? If you don’t think they’re equivalent, why not?

The issue becomes very much clearer when sex based language is used.

There is a huge difference between:

A woman is celebrated for defying sexist female stereotypes.

vs.

A male person is celebrated for defying sexist female stereotypes.

So, I didn't realise that the person was trans. I do think that that alters things significantly for me. It's one thing being female or from a certain group and being self depreciating and ironic, but when that person is from the same cohort as the oppressors, then making jokes about the oppressed, even if intended to be ironic, is tone deaf.

Absolutely 💯

Sounds about as funny as a cup of cold sick. 🤷🏻‍♀️

This thread isn't about why you should think of males as women though. It's about whether it's reasonable to "bridle" because a trans women did a silly meme.

Was Rachel dolezal being 'silly'?

It's about whether it's reasonable to "bridle" because a trans women did a silly meme.

No, you're thinking of AIBU. This is FWR and the OP didn't ask whether she was being unreasonable, she just wanted to discuss sexist stereotypes and males mocking women for following them.

Exactly.

And in this scenario, it sure shit isn't the women who are being unreasonable.