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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Founder of Surrey Pride charged with child sex abuse

400 replies

CriticalCondition · 15/08/2024 20:41

Gosh. I remember this person from a few years ago when Starbucks was doing its Mermaid biscuits campaign. A local councillor (?) raised her concerns about safeguarding at Mermaids and he had a real go at her.

BBC News - Surrey Pride founder faces child sex abuse charges
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0k4g6ek3xvo

Staines Magistrates' Court.

Surrey Pride founder and volunteer facing child sex abuse charges

Stephen Ireland and David Sutton, both from Addlestone, were arrested on Wednesday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0k4g6ek3xvo

OP posts:
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45
StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 13:00

ArabellaScott · 16/08/2024 12:54

That is a long ass post. And there is not even one word of consideration or compassion for the victim.

I wonder if Hazell Dean might benefit from some quiet reflection on whether default allyship means ignoring red flags about safeguarding concerns.

HectorPlasm · 16/08/2024 13:01

"So we can educate you"

The chilling words of those who tolerate no other opinions

MikkyMo · 16/08/2024 13:01

Hazel has no doubt made a prity penny and gained attention she would not otherwise get schilling for men's sex rights.

Chariothorses · 16/08/2024 13:08

Reminds me of the police officer Diana Alastair on x pointing out the links no one likes to acknowledge any more. In full below for those not on x..

For anyone who doesn’t know, I’m a law enforcement officer with experience investigating both homicides and sex crimes. When I was a rookie in 2007, there was a clear understanding that crossdressing men in women’s spaces were often there for sexual reasons, and that if we were called to deal with one, he was to be trespassed from the premises if the owner/manager requested it (meaning criminal charges would be filed if he returned), and any women who were in the bathroom with him would be questioned to make sure they hadn’t been harassed or assaulted. After that, assuming no one had been assaulted and wanted to press charges, he would be released with a verbal warning to stay out of women’s bathrooms. When I started working sex crimes in 2015, it was still understood that crossdressers did it for sexual reasons, and common knowledge that transvestitic fetishism is often found in men who display other predatory sexual behaviors. (I would also estimate that roughly 50% of the hard drives containing child sexual abuse material that I had to go through in my time there also contained images or video of the hard drive’s (male) owner dressed in women’s or adult-sized toddler/infant clothing of some kind.) By the time I made Homicide in 2017, you could hear the first rumblings of the impending eruption of narcissism and delusion, if you were paying close attention. I wasn’t, but you know what they say about hindsight being 20/20. Between 2016 and 2018, I went to multiple law enforcement seminars and training events related to sexually motivated homicide, and from 2018-2020, I took classes in abnormal psych through a program my department has established with a local university. At the seminars and training events, if speakers or instructors discussed killers like BTK or Col. Russell Williams (both of whom were crossdressers), they would discuss the rest of the subject’s psychology and case file in depth, but skirt around the issue of their TF with a deliberately casual, deliberately brief comment not designed to invite further questions. When I tried to ask questions about the relationship between a killer’s TF and their crimes anyway (not out of TERFery; at the time, I knew basically nothing about the tactics or goals of the trans rights movement; I was interested only out of professional curiosity) I was either ignored or given the beginning of an answer that sometimes started out strong, but by the end of the reply had inevitably gone off the rails. No answer I was ever given had any real relationship to my actual questions. There was a very obvious reluctance to go beyond recounting the bones of this part of these particular cases, and very little discussion of the part TF played in the motive or the psychology of the killers, a reluctance that was especially obvious when discussing crimes with a clear sexual aspect. Certainly no instructor ever tried to draw a link between a suspect’s TF and elements of the crime. It was frustrating, but I chalked it up to personal feelings on the part of the speakers and instructors, who had clearly been uncomfortable discussing the subject - something I didn’t then understand, and which puzzled me. The link between TF and sexually inappropriate and/or predatory behavior has never been a secret in law enforcement circles, and it seemed odd for them to be so reluctant to discuss what was basically common knowledge. In my first abnormal sexual psych class, it was worse. Any time the subject came up, the professor would say something like “this is what we used to think, but recent studies have proven that TW are no threat to other women and that TF/AGP doesn’t exist/affects natal women also.” (He went back and forth on that one).

Chariothorses · 16/08/2024 13:10

and the census stats quoted by another mumsnetter

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

HellonHeels · 16/08/2024 13:16

Chersfrozenface · 16/08/2024 08:44

Account is still there https://x.com/PrideInSurrey

Tweet is gone, though.

Needs to have the archived deleted tweet recirculated for sunlight purposes!

GailBlancheViola · 16/08/2024 13:17

ArabellaScott · 16/08/2024 10:00

Well, what to say about that in light of the recent news?

The bit about removing people from power was especially chilling.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 13:19

Chariothorses · 16/08/2024 13:10

"That compares to 1 in every 2500-3000 men and 1 in every 243000 women."

Well, that's disturbing in so many ways.

RantyMcRanterton · 16/08/2024 13:29

This is horrific. I feel sick.

RantyMcRanterton · 16/08/2024 13:30

Oh but where are our usual scolders, to tell us off for being untoward towards paedophiles?

Chariothorses · 16/08/2024 13:32

I have just read on twitter (ripx4nutmeg) that
' Pride in Surrey founder Stephen Ireland, who's been charged with child rape, is a diversity trainer, who's given DEI training to the police' and is at least the second founder of a UK Pride event in the last year to be charged with child sexual abuse offences...Neither story made BBC News' Pride section'

GailBlancheViola · 16/08/2024 13:35

RantyMcRanterton · 16/08/2024 13:30

Oh but where are our usual scolders, to tell us off for being untoward towards paedophiles?

Quite. It is very obvious which threads they avoid like the plague.

elgreco · 16/08/2024 13:38

I think Pride should write a letter disowning themselves from all the paedophile/ paedophile supporters that they have employed or marched with.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/08/2024 13:46

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 11:23

Sadly, this indicates how little due diligence charities with substantial safeguarding duties perform before inviting speakers or activists to be involved with them.

Or, like the kindergarten parents, just how desperate people are to appear progressive that they lose all sense of appropriate boundaries.

Disturbing read:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

Thank you for that. Absolutely chilling. So open-minded their brains fell out.

LaerealSilverhand · 16/08/2024 13:48

AudHvamm · 16/08/2024 06:41

Of course!

It's good to see the clarification of child under 13. I've wondered if the reporting on CSA is confusing to the general reader sometimes because the same language is used for a 16 yo and a 7 yo and often without the clarification of age. I don't mean to suggest SA is less wrong if the victim is 14 but I do think it creates a clearer picture of the offender. Be interested to hear what others think on this.

This will be because sexual intercourse with a child under the age of 13 is rape. Sexual intercourse with a child between 13 and 16 is only rape if it was non-consensual. If the child was deemed to have consented it is the lesser offence of sexual activity with a child.

I know a lot of people will argue that a child under 16 cannot consent but this is to misunderstand the law as it stands which has, effectively, three separate 'ages of consent' at 13, 16 and 18.

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 16/08/2024 13:54

Wasn't there an announcement very recently that Surrey Police were leaving the Stonewall scheme. Maybe there's a long overdue cleaning of the Augean/Woke-ing stables going on?

AudHvamm · 16/08/2024 14:00

LaerealSilverhand · 16/08/2024 13:48

This will be because sexual intercourse with a child under the age of 13 is rape. Sexual intercourse with a child between 13 and 16 is only rape if it was non-consensual. If the child was deemed to have consented it is the lesser offence of sexual activity with a child.

I know a lot of people will argue that a child under 16 cannot consent but this is to misunderstand the law as it stands which has, effectively, three separate 'ages of consent' at 13, 16 and 18.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 14:09

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 16/08/2024 13:54

Wasn't there an announcement very recently that Surrey Police were leaving the Stonewall scheme. Maybe there's a long overdue cleaning of the Augean/Woke-ing stables going on?

Outside of this issue, I'm increasingly minded that minor tweaks like this aren't sufficient.

It's hard to resist the feeling that the entire Police Service needs a radical overhaul with an emphasis on safeguarding and culture. It will take a while to design and implement over time but it needs to be done. We can't have a police force that polices by consent that is staffed by people with negligible understanding of major issues and the abuse of power.

Rachelsthorns · 16/08/2024 14:41

Thesquarerootofnotgivingafuck · 16/08/2024 06:50

Hazell Dean sounds like a nightmare, cant get the excuses in fast enough. Absolutely no awareness, compassion for the victims, just "we didn't know/ I hardly saw him, we were duped" she should get in the bin and take her entire organisation with her and if I can "borrow" one of the stupid rainbow police cars I'll drive over the that bin till it's flat as a pancake and I'll STILL be fucking annoyed at the fact that "this never happens" has happened every fucking day for years and they're still turning a blind eye again.
"Pride in Surrey team have worked tirelessly to provide safe spaces, create events, and provide services for the LGBTQ+ community in Surrey" that doesn't make the cover you provided for paedophiles ok.

I loathe Stephen Ireland and these accusations are appalling, however I think you are being a little unfair to Hazell Dean.

It's almost certain that they didn't know and had no suspicions.
Time and again, those who knew perpetrators say exactly the same thing. Even married women say they had no idea.
These specimens don't commit their offences in full view, do they? They're crafty, secretive and sneaky. I've known a paedophile assault a small child in a room full of people and no-one had a clue.
They won't have been told much at all prior to the charges being laid, though they implemented safeguarding precautions with the little information they had.

She can't voice compassion for the victims because that would imply the men are guilty before the trial. Whatever we think of them and these disgusting charges, they're still innocent in law until found guilty.
There's a strong desire to throw them in a pit and let them rot when we read this report, but justice does need to be done.

Your username is duly noted Smile

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 14:45

Rachelsthorns · 16/08/2024 14:41

I loathe Stephen Ireland and these accusations are appalling, however I think you are being a little unfair to Hazell Dean.

It's almost certain that they didn't know and had no suspicions.
Time and again, those who knew perpetrators say exactly the same thing. Even married women say they had no idea.
These specimens don't commit their offences in full view, do they? They're crafty, secretive and sneaky. I've known a paedophile assault a small child in a room full of people and no-one had a clue.
They won't have been told much at all prior to the charges being laid, though they implemented safeguarding precautions with the little information they had.

She can't voice compassion for the victims because that would imply the men are guilty before the trial. Whatever we think of them and these disgusting charges, they're still innocent in law until found guilty.
There's a strong desire to throw them in a pit and let them rot when we read this report, but justice does need to be done.

Your username is duly noted Smile

Did you miss Arabella's post about HD's comments re: the case of someone who is convicted? Devoid of concern for the young people at the heart of it.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5143082-founder-of-surrey-pride-charged-with-child-sex-abuse?reply=137582653&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

Rachelsthorns · 16/08/2024 14:52

It doesn't alter my comments regarding her response to these allegations. She has to be careful in what she says at this stage.

ArabellaScott · 16/08/2024 14:57

Rachelsthorns · 16/08/2024 14:41

I loathe Stephen Ireland and these accusations are appalling, however I think you are being a little unfair to Hazell Dean.

It's almost certain that they didn't know and had no suspicions.
Time and again, those who knew perpetrators say exactly the same thing. Even married women say they had no idea.
These specimens don't commit their offences in full view, do they? They're crafty, secretive and sneaky. I've known a paedophile assault a small child in a room full of people and no-one had a clue.
They won't have been told much at all prior to the charges being laid, though they implemented safeguarding precautions with the little information they had.

She can't voice compassion for the victims because that would imply the men are guilty before the trial. Whatever we think of them and these disgusting charges, they're still innocent in law until found guilty.
There's a strong desire to throw them in a pit and let them rot when we read this report, but justice does need to be done.

Your username is duly noted Smile

Although one of the ex trustees of Pride in Surrey has said (publically, on Surrey Police's facebook post about the arrests) that they raised concerns and were vilified for doing so.

I agree that both men are obviously innocent until proven guilty. And we should all bear in mind that they have only been arrested and not tried.

The larger issue is what happens when concerns are raised. That's when we're not talking about individuals, but about cultures.

We, as in society, are enormously prone to denial and minimisation. Often for sensible reasons, fwiw. And many women on here have been pointing out not only the risks but the repeated patterns of how sacred castes are created, and how those will almost inevitably be exploited.

One of those patterns that we have seen again and again is men involved actively in vilifying and attacking feminists, and/or pushing ideas to undermine societal boundaries, have eventually had allegations made against them. I could write a very long list.

There is a disturbing tendency for people to strenuously push back in the face of allegations. This is not how whistleblowing or safeguarding works.

ArabellaScott · 16/08/2024 14:58

The post I was commenting on regarding the lack of concern for any victims was about Andrew Miller/Amy George, btw. Who has been convicted, thankfully, for a very long time.

FarewellMsSorrow · 16/08/2024 15:01

I've frequently driven past the now-shut (due to building work) Pride in Surrey shop - always seemed to be open in the evening, big sign in the window/outside saying "pop in for a chat." That doesn't seem dodgy at all now, does it?

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 16/08/2024 15:02

Rachelsthorns · 16/08/2024 14:52

It doesn't alter my comments regarding her response to these allegations. She has to be careful in what she says at this stage.

I read the previous comments as illustrative that HD has a history of demonstrating lack of empathy for young victims from previous default allyship statements.

Somebody with that much political experience would have been able to come up with a suitable form of words to express appropriate compassion for the young people and their families at the heart of these distressing charges while exercising due caution.

It's the 5 Ps of crisis management: Predict, Prevent, Prepare, Perform and Post-Action and Assessment