Language control, emotional manipulation, blackmail and its impact on being able to describe reality.

[RainWithSunnySpells]

Having read both the recent drive-by scolding and another thread that is not about the boxers, I have been thinking about the conrol of language as below.

This is the foundation that gender ideology stands on.

This is the change from how transexuals were discussed in the recent past. Everyone knew that no-one could change sex and it wasn't a thought crime to know it or say it. It was a polite kindness that you could go along with if you wanted to. It was not enforced in an authoritarian manner.

Now you could 'lose your son/daughter/relative/friend if you use the wrong pronoun'.
You've got to think 'he he he' or 'she she she'.
You don't want to die alone do you?

This is the manipulation.
This is the blackmail.
This is how you are made to comply with ideology.

This is the manipulation.
This is the blackmail.
This is how you are made to comply with ideology

It is indeed.

Absolutely.

In real life, I might well afford someone the courtesy of using their preferred pronoun. But this decision is up to me. My words, from my mouth. My brain having to alter its processing. My neurodivergency struggling to cope with that.

But I'm not an arsehole. If you're not one either, I'm likely to use preferred pronouns around you.

When I need to describe my reality I need to use accurate words. Especially when I'm speaking from a marginalised position or on behalf of those in marginalised positions.

I won't force my children to use wrong sex pronouns because they have been brought up to believe she and he have equal value. They're simply a description of sex not a judgement. One of my kids was "misgendered" solidly until puberty made their sex obvious. To teach them that "misgendering" is an issue undoes the value of equality that I've instilled.

With the added layer of deliberately making the permitted language unclear, so people are doubly afraid because they do not understand.

Arendt discusses misinformation, loneliness, linguistic instability etc. as pre-conditions in The Road to Totalitarianism. Thoughtful essay on totalitarianism creating loneliness and the wider political and social consequences of that.

"Totalitarianism destroys man’s ability to think, while turning each in his lonely isolation against all others"

Totalitarian movements use ideology to isolate individuals. Isolate means ‘to cause a person to be or remain alone or apart from others’. Arendt spends the first part of ‘Ideology and Terror’ breaking down the ‘recipes of ideologies’ into their basic ingredients to show how this is done:

ideologies are divorced from the world of lived experience, and foreclose the possibility of new experience;
ideologies are concerned with controlling and predicting the tide of history;
ideologies do not explain what is, they explain what becomes;
ideologies rely on logical procedures in thinking that are divorced from reality;
ideological thinking insists upon a ‘truer reality’, that is concealed behind the world of perceptible things.
The way we think about the world affects the relationships we have with others and ourselves. By injecting a secret meaning into every event and experience, ideological movements are forced to change reality in accordance with their claims once they come to power. And this means that one can no longer trust the reality of one’s own lived experiences in the world. Instead, one is taught to distrust oneself and others, and to always rely upon the ideology of the movement, which must be right.

https://aeon.co/essays/for-hannah-arendt-totalitarianism-is-rooted-in-loneliness

Arendt is fantastic. I’ve only read excerpts of what she says. I really need to read ‘The origins of Totalitarianism’.

Why did I say The Road …😣(I should have checked.)

I should re-read it. That and Snyder's On Tyranny: twenty lessons.

ETA: lesson 9 is about language and 10 about truth.

9. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking, even if only to convey that thing you think everyone is saying. Make an effort to separate yourself from the internet. Read books.
10. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/on-tyranny

That's sobering.

I've been thinking recently about how "social death" ( which I think some people experience when expressing unpopular opinions) feels so incredibly terrifying because we're social mammals. At various points in our past, social death = actual death. Not just through living under tyrannical regimes but deeper past, when one could only survive as part of a tribe of humans.

I think this is why it's so hard for people to speak the truth even when, currently, it's unlikely to lead to death.

Absolutely. Being shunned is very damaging.

And extending from that the emotional blackmail imbeded in articles, especially the headlines.
See the Guadians latest
"‘I’ve had to become my own doctor’: trans young people on life after the Cass review'
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/15/ive-had-to-become-my-own-doctor-trans-young-people-on-life-after-the-cass-review

It does raise the spectre of compromising survival in historical terms which is plausibly why we developed social protection mechanisms such as preference falsification?

@NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite "9. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking"
Gosh that reminds me of discussions of puberty blockers, I guess about a decade ago. Always the phrase, "fully reversible." I've had lots of conversations with lots of nurses and doctors about issues and controversies relating to prescribed medications in psychiatry. And there are lots of ways of saying that a pharmaceutical regimen won't have long lasting effects after it's ceased. But always, in every conversation, comment, article about puberty blockers: the very same phrase, "fully reversible."
The strangeness wasn't primarily in the claim being made (even though it turns out not to be true and the evidence was never great). The strangeness was in the ubiquity of the repeated phrase. Mantra like.

I did a few posts in the now deleted Son has Trans GF thread. The number of posters who said that they thought wrong sex pronouns were silly but would play along to “avoid damaging their relationship with their child”, to ensure
”their child was happy” and “to avoid being cut off” was astounding. Total bullshit manipulation.

I said on that thread then and I say again now, this is out of control hyperbole. It is normal for teenagers to fall out with their parents, it is normal for teenagers to think their parents are narrow-minded bigots, it is normal for there to be temporary breakdowns in relationships. It’s actually healthy. Parents should be rolling their eyes at the ridiculous things that are So Very Important to their offspring, whether it’s stupid clothes, mental sub cultures or insidious language policing. The kids will huff and puff and wail to their friends about their idiot parents and that’s the end of it.

But the number of parents who said they would abandon their principles and give up their parental authority and do linguistic gymnastics (which will be wrong anyway) to avoid these normal things happening, is astounding. This is a relatively new thing- never upset your child under any circumstance and go along with their youthful idiocies. It’s not right and it is so silly. The TRAs have done a number on these parents if they believe that little Jonnie will cut them off forever because they won’t refer to his girlfriend as a bloke.

well, we all have a clear choice. dont rock the boat and go along with what you know to be manipulative bollocks for a quiet life or ....not. Personally I dont regard anyone holding batshit mental ideas as some one I want anything to do with. Easy for me, as I have yet to have this position cost me anything in terms of career, family or friends, but I would like to think if it did, I would take what I regard as the honourable path-capitulating to nutters is never going to end well.

I agree @LargeSquareRock but I wonder if its part of a wider crisis in parenting that I've noticed amongst my own GenX cohort? I notice a trend amongst some friends where they can be quite fawning over their young adult children. I don't mean just proud of their kid, as a parent might be, but overly (IMO) invested in their child's day to day relationships, fallouts, social life, activities (and think you should be too). I've noticed these very involved as a friend rather than parent type parents seem to struggle with any level of parental authority. I often wonder if its a warped understanding of child-led.

@NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite thanks for sharing that extract. This ideology has created so much distance between me and lifelong friends who refuse to engage because: Right Side of History. It's really depressing.

If you don't know what its safe to say or who is on your side today, you cannot trust yourself. You live in a constant state of uncertainty, and need to turn to an authority to advise you what to say and who to shun.
This is authoritarianism, its hierarchical and the opposite of both autonomy and community. Its familiar to many women because its the dynamic in every abusive relationship you've ever been in.

I am shunned by my much beloved daughter over this issue, I think the last time I spoke to her was probably about four years ago.

Weirdly, its really hard for me to discern my feelings over this.

Generally I feel nothing, no panic, anger or distress of any kind, which even I can see if weird.

I don't know if there is something wrong with me, or I'm in denial or the injustice of the situation has made me disconnect from her? Its a real mystery to me.

One thing is; I have never fitted in anywhere from early childhood so maybe this makes me less vulnerable to peer pressure?

Large - you've picked up on what I did and have identified the non boxing thread that I read. It was horrific to read.

Yesterdays posts on the boxing threads were also interesting reading. I haven't caught up on them today.

Shaddowbaned I'm so sorry. That sounds an unimaginably difficult situation. I hope you find a way through. Have you had any counselling or talked to a professional about it?

Congratulations you understand why it's dangerous authoritarian bullshit.

It is the same old shit to control repackaged for a new generation.

I've observed that parents who refuse to contradict their children at all because they're scared this might make their children unhappy generally make poor long term decisions which impact negatively on their child's mental health.

It's not healthy or natural to have parents comply with every demand and it is very poor preparation for adult life, which is unlikely to result in the resilience required for a successful life.

Yes, and parents have known that for millennia. They can't afford to forget it now.

My child has cut me off, @LargeSquareRock. It’s devastating. Parents ARE being held to ransom. I never thought estrangement would happen until it happened to me.

But despite the daily grief and the indescribable pain of separation, I know that I couldn't have physically made the magic words come out of my mouth. I went along with chosen pronouns except when I was tired/distracted and the wrong one slipped out. I was completely supportive of my child exploring and expressing their identity, but that wasn’t enough. I wouldn’t (and still won’t) say that I was cis, or that gender trumped sex. GI needs compliance or it falls apart. It is thought policing. It is bullying. It is authoritarianism. TRAs are robbing young people of supportive, loving parents by telling them that they are better off without us if we don’t see the world and understand ourselves the same way. It is no model for navigating relationships.

(Been around on and off with various names since before the days of Spartacus, btw, and am so grateful that this board exists.)

My daughter has now cut me off too. She should be old enough to know better and I was very proud of getting her through her teenage years unscathed, but she has now embraced it all.

It’s odd, because I don’t feel what I expected to. I thought I would be devastated, but I’m mostly tired and sad. Having had a couple of weeks now to rationalize what I’m experiencing, I think my response is partly because I have been called hateful for so long on various internet sites, that it has lost its sting.

But beyond that, and related to the reason it doesn’t sting as it used to, is that my conscience is clear. I’ve had a long time to come to terms with the fact that, what is being tried here is gaslighting and blackmail. It’s an attempt to make me capitulate and I can’t.

I’m not wasting time agonizing over it as there’s no choice. I can’t believe what she believes and I can’t, in good conscience pretend. I’ve been “out” under my real name for a while and am prepared for whatever that might bring.

And I’ve been gaslit for real, many years ago, by a man who was much more vindictive and was doing it for enjoyment. I am never going to allow that happen to me again, even when it’s someone I love dearly.

It is leaving me with a difficult question over what I do next, but that’s something time will help with. In the meantime, I have to find a way forward for myself, before I can think about anyone else.

I am fairly sure my daughter hasn’t fallen for the lie that she is male though, and if I am right in that, it’s something to be truly grateful for. I hope her girlfriend isn’t trying to convince her of that. I thought the girlfriend was lovely, but I’m having to face the fact it might have been her who has brought this ideology into my daughter’s life.

@ArabellaScott thank you for the supportive words (I wanted to put a heart emoji but it does not seem to be an option, so I'll put a kiss instead X). I have not really explored counselling as tbh I only really think it achieves anything if you do proper psychoanalysis, which takes years and costs a bomb (and even then there is no guarantee you will get anything out of it)

@PriOn1 'It’s odd, because I don’t feel what I expected to. I thought I would be devastated, but I’m mostly tired and sad.'

Gosh, that could have been me writing that!

I also never imagined in a million years that we would become estranged, but here we are. Another victim of GI, I really think its like a cancer burning through society, destroying everything it touches, individuals and institutions alike.

I also thought I would be totally devastated by not having a relationship, but I think the context is so unjust, surreal and obviously toxic that I think I've disengaged emotionally from her, either that or there is something really wrong with me? (but generally I'm not known for being cold or unemotional)

I do feel fucked off with her uni - don't ever send your kids to Oxford, seriously don't. She left an intelligent, open minded, kind, lovely girl and came back a bully who's desperate for victim status.
She was the first in our family to go to university and if I'd known how useless Oxford is I would have tried to get her to go somewhere else, but I thought it was a good uni.
She is highly intelligent and no longer a kid by a longshot, there is no excuse for her, she is not some naïve teenager. I don't think for a second she is not aware of the contradictions inherent in GI.