Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

To continue the discussion...

Thread 3

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5135868-thread-3-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I am very sceptical. I have a suspicion just plain ordinary male.

Is he really blind? Or just running around with his eyes closed, pretending.

Perhaps better not question it, or we'll have a week or two of arguing with idiots who think that Specsavers is Russian-controlled.

An official from WB had said that the two males shouldn't be boxing women - I can't recall his name, though ... will try to find

Gah, can't find right now. There's so much coverage it's a lot to sift through.

Other statements and articles are pretty vague. WB do say 'safety above all', but also bang on about 'inclusion'. They do talk about further tests being necessary, so I assume a.policy would be less.lax than IOC's anything goes dereliction of duty.

apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-boxing-gender-382edf5dca7479f92e874cfd39375af1

Being male isn't a health condition, but it ought to preclude Khelif fighting against women. DSD is the suspected reason for the passport sex marker F, which is what enabled Khelif and Lin to fight against women under the Paris Boxing Unit rules.

A DSD doesn't confer physical advantages, it may reduce male athletic performance advantage or have no effect on it. It's maleness that confers those physical advantages, which, as we can see from CAIS athletes, arise mainly but not entirely from the effect of testosterone on the male body at puberty.

I'm pretty sure that if there were rules put in at top level testing would filter down pretty quickly, OK so it's not going to reach school sports day or park run, but people won't have any incentive to recruit DSD athletes and where there is any doubt /suspicion about someone who is competing they will be tested before money and resources are wasted on them.

If the governing bodies protected the category of female for women the problem would largely go away.

I knew high altitude changed your RBC carrying capacity but ...perhaps that's why the Scots & Welsh assemblies are so concerned about this matter.

I live on a hill, safe from rising sea levels but am now worried about my chromosomes. I demand research is done to discover when this scientific miracle occurs. Is it related to height, atmospheric pressure, oxygen levels, UV exposure or yodelling? I think we should be told.

Personally I would embrace it - being a man means better pay, get listened to in meetings and bigger pockets. And all you have to do is live in the Grampians for a few years!

MessinaBloom · Today 03:00

Are they? Are they really? You know that for sure, how? It's all so difficult, isn't it?

So you're using scientific rigour? How do you know for sure that you're correct? You're relying on:

Hearsay
Biased discussion board posts
Limited information from a corrupt sorting federation
Medical testimony from above federation

Are you posting from an upturned tub, whilst clapping and going "Arp! Arp! Arp!" and trying to catch a beach ball?

All whilst being guilty of all you have accused someone else of doing.

So disabled women are not equal to women and their sport is undeserving of protection from fairness and safety because it's less elite.

Got it.

And we have to cheer the winner even if they are disrespectful to every woman in the race?

Got it.

Good to know how little women are thought of and what inclusion means.

The IOC again. Let's hope that Seb Coe gets the job next and protects the female category as promised.

Shit. If your chromosomes change in the hills due to the environment, can someone explain wtf happens to you if you go to Runcorn please?

(Sorry Runcorn but we need to establish some 'facts' here)

The International Paralympic Committee (IPC) is the organization that governs the Paralympic Games, not the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The IPC is recognized by the IOC and the two organizations have a formal agreement that ensures the Paralympic Games are held shortly after the Olympic Games. The agreement also guarantees that the Paralympic Games use the same venues, facilities, athletes' village, entry fees, and travel costs as the Olympic Games. The 2001 agreement was extended through 2020 and then again to 2032.

Coe can't help Paralympians if he gets the IOC job.

Rule 4.5 that Signal posted mentions in the second paragraph that the IPC will use the IOC's transgender policy, so Coe heading it up could still benefit if he can get it modified (and if he gets in, of course).

I had a look to see what World Boxing say about sex testing, but their website doesn't address it directly - admittedly it's a work in progress - but worryingly the word 'inclusivity' pops up..

So if World Boxing [not to be confused with the WBO, World Boxing Organisation, or WBA, World Boxing Association - maybe they should rethink their name??] becomes the regulatory body for amateur boxing recognised by the IOC, it doesn't look good.

The professional bodies like the WBO and the WBA seem to be clearer about men not boxing women, and that's why I thought Khelif and Lin might not have a future in pro boxing.

On reflection, though, the wider boxing world is so dodgy that there's bound to be a market for matches between the likes of Khelif and some unfortunate down-on-her-luck no-hoper who needs the money - the plot of many boxing-themed black and white films.

Ah, I wonder if I've confused World Boxing with the World Boxing Association or World Boxing Organisation, and I wonder if all these organisations might possibly amalgamate or even give themselves names that are easier to differentiate? It seems a somewhat confrontational sphere, perhaps that's to be expected, but it also looks to the casual observer like a total mess.

'Van Der Vorst said it’s “too early” to know World Boxing’s exact policies on gender identity, given the unique physical demands and dangers of boxing.

“First of all, safety above all,” Van Der Vorst said. “But I think with a combat sport, there could be some other reasons how you are going to deal with these kinds of situations.”

The IOC used rules from 2016 in determining boxers’ gender eligibility, while several Olympic sports’ governing bodies have updated their gender rules over the past three years, including World Aquatics, World Athletics and the International Cycling Union. The governing body for track and field also last year tightened rules on athletes with differences in sex development.

“We will assign our medical committee as soon as possible after these Games to make policy, and they are already in progress,” Van Der Vorst said. “But they have to finalize their policy, and the general issue is very complicated. You need to have good tests, not only the gender tests, but also the medical tests. More importantly, I think it’s not up to you and I. It’s up to the (professional) people who are involved in (the testing).”'

Safety above all, sure, so why the 'but'?

I assume by 'medical tests' he means testosterone levels.

Maybe worth writing to WB to ask and express concerns.

'Transgender boxers are welcome to compete, however due to the nature of boxing, they must fight in their designated gender category to avoid mismatches or risk to health. The World Boxing Medical Committee outlines further the medical rules under which transgender boxers can compete in boxing.'

14 March 2023, World Boxing 'Gender Equality and Inclusion policy'

If they're really going on 'gender' rather than sex, this is worrying. All needs to be much clearer. And nothing at all in there on DSDs.

https://worldboxing.org/governance/

You're forgetting:

• Medical testimony from Imane's own coaching team. Specifically, the doctor responsible.for hormone adjustments.- who confirmed both the chromosome and hormone 'abnormalities'.

Yes, you're right - no mention of sex :
Characteristics that can affect fairness or lead to discrimination are age, gender, ethnic origin, race, disability, nationality and its origin, religion or beliefs, marital status, sexual orientation, pregnancy and maternity and socio-economic status.

so it could be another case of 'what it says on your passport'.

What keeps on circulating though is this commentary about the corruption of the IBA.

While expecting the IOC to be factual and scientific in the face of the known past of them declaring Semenya was ‘female with high testosterone’ and that ‘anyone with female on their passport is female’.

The inconsistency is obvious yet, we keep seeing it. It does then leave the question: who do those declaring they won’t trust the IBA trust to deliver the information? The IOC with its proven lies on this subject? No? Who else then?

In the face of this, the ‘you trust the corrupt IBA and have no evidence’ seems to me to be just an excuse to vilify people who disagree.

That to me reads like they mean sex, but, confusingly, use the word gender as a synonym for sex.

Let's hope it's just poorly worded and they are currently working on a far more detailed and sensible policy.

I think the IOC have attempted to wash their hands of responsibility and can just about plausibly claim they aren't boxing experts or any kind of experts , but surely no boxing organisation can claim that it's okay for men to fight women and retain any authority?

Let's hope this Olympics was just a horrific anomaly and not setting any kind of precedent.

Otherwise we're into gladatorial sacrifice of women versus males, really. I suppose for some, that's a plus.

It's like The People's Front of Judaea, The Judaean People's Front...