Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Blimey, they're thorough, aren't they? Make us look like dilettantes!
My fave posts were

"My testicles don't make me any less of a woman" Oh honey.
and
"There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman."
This feels like looking at my brother's dog and saying "There is a problem with his chromosomes but he really is human! He's your son!"

Yep, Ovarit is a radfem site - as in, set up and run by radfems. Doesn’t mean other women can’t comment, of course.

Fingers crossed Coe becomes ioc president and carries through his pledge to stand up for women's sport. 👏

Imane Khelif's trainer admits 'problem with chromosomes' after boxer took gold: 'This poor young girl was devastated' | Daily Mail Online

Many apologies if this has been asked before, regarding the boxers and DSD. Would the scientists, the IBA, the WBO and the coach still say XY if Khelief has a DSD? Surely his coach would try to muddy the waters even more by mentioning an X chromosome? But always it has just been XY.

Also, fuming, Lin was apparently invited to the Olympics. Can we assume they both were? For shits and giggles and Bach had already written all his speeches about inclusion. So very pleased he is going.

Yep, Ovarit is a radfem site - as in, set up and run by radfems

You say that as though it’s a negative thing? Or have I misunderstood?

I didn't take any negativity from saying Ovarit = radfems.

I'd have to read more of the posts to see if I agree that it espouses a radical feminist analysis, but if it does, that's great, good to have different perspectives

Same here, I just assumed that Ovait's opinion is the natural conclusion of a radfem site, so not surprising.

Wasn’t Lin Yu-Ting also supposed to be a flag-bearer? I’m not sure that happened at the ceremony as far as I could see, and I heard no mention from the commentary (unlike Khelif, who was briefly name-checked)

Yes I realised I sounded snippy which was unintentional but was too late to edit. Apologies

Khelif was initially listed as the flag bearer at the closing ceremony. However this was later changed for reasons unknown.

My guess is someone had cold feet. Who I don't know.

But it has to be said that I'm not sure the image of Khelif holding the flag would age well for Khelif, Algeria or the IOC. So take your pick about who got cold feet with that one.

Perhaps the flag was to heavy for those delicate little wrists.

They're not faffing around with Be Kind bullshit on Ovarit, either

I've just been browsing a bit on Ovarit and I’m very disappointed to find even there, at least one person insisting that Khelif has been maligned and dancing on the head of a pin re. the wording used in the French interview. It's bonkers.

I love the way we come back and say 'sorry I was snippy' on MN - a bit of a rarity in most online discussions!
It is welcome and valuable, and this is for everybody who has ever apologised for being snippy:

With regard to the legal case, the Daily Mail article linked above quotes the boxer

Khelif told a press conference after winning her medal: 'I am a woman like any woman. I was born a woman and I have lived as a woman but there are enemies to success and they can't digest my success.'
She later added: 'All that is being said about me on social media is immoral. I want to change the minds of people around the world.'

Would Khelif do this if she didn't really identify as a woman??

To be clear, I don't think it was at all fair that she was included in the Olympics as it seems fairly clear she has had a male puberty so shouldn't have been eligible imo. So I'm really just addressing those comments saying she definitely knows she's a man, she's a cheat, is laughing at us etc.

We can't know for sure what Khelif believes really? The quotes above suggest to me that she does truly believe she's a woman even if she knows she's different.

I wasn't sure what pronouns to use btw. Going with she as DSDs are complicated psychologically so I'd tend to use whatever the person who's affected chooses In that case...even if I wouldn't allow the same person to box.

https://ovarit.com/o/SaveWomensSports/590503/from-memory-lane-in-2009-after-winning-first-women-s-world-championship-title-ca

^ interesting post about Caster Semenya there

Best part, quoted from the article:

Britain's Daily Mirror went so far as to point out her name is an anagram for the phrase: "A secret man? Yes."

Many apologies if this has been asked before, regarding the boxers and DSD. Would the scientists, the IBA, the WBO and the coach still say XY if Khelief has a DSD? Surely his coach would try to muddy the waters even more by mentioning an X chromosome? But always it has just been XY.

Not sure I understand the question @FlippinFumin?
You can be XY and have a DSD. The fact that Khelif was registered and raised as a girl and they're also saying XY implies a DSD.

anyone listened to the twitter space with sharron davies last night?

Would the scientists, the IBA, the WBO and the coach still say XY if Khelief has a DSD? Surely his coach would try to muddy the waters even more by mentioning an X chromosome? But always it has just been XY.

It's the Y that's the issue. That's why it gets talked about - it's a DSD in someone with a Y chromosome. Mentioning the X is irrelevant, and certainly saying 'but she has an X' as a defence is pointless. Everyone has an X. It's impossible for.the fetus to develop without one.

Would Khelif do this if she didn't really identify as a woman??

Identity is irrelevant. Everyone in Imane's team, including Imane, knows the biological facts.

Wouldn't that suggest very poor psychological and social support though?

Biology doesn't stop existing because of how Khelif identifies.

Remember Khelif is currently surrounded by a bunch of people who literally financially benefit from Khelif being classed as female.

@Outofitagain

Would Khelif do this if she didn't really identify as a woman??

If he doesn't continue the charade his career as a boxer is over. If he can convince women to box against him he still has a chance of earning some money, which is a big motivator.

Biological facts can be complicated in DSDs...and we don't know exactly what condition Khelif has. But XY plus high testosterone plus musculature, reach etc taken together do seem to imply the boxer has been through male puberty (which is not always the case in XY DSDs btw).

I don't think Khelif should have been allowed take part but I'm more uncomfortable with the name-calling. Her beliefs around her identify as well as education levels are relevant to whether she believed she was cheating or not.

The IOC on the other hand...

That's true too of course.
I hope no other woman fights against Khelif!