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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 11:25

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
Floisme · 06/08/2024 18:28

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 18:20

fanks, babe. PDFs bring out the irrational rage in me sometimes.

Thanks both of you.

Does this mean IOC are in contravention of their own framework?

ChateauMargaux · 06/08/2024 18:38

The robust peer reviewed evidence is only required to exclude competitors.... so the International Federations have to fund that research for a specific group of athletes for that event (bizarrely specific on that). The excluded competitor can refute this evidence and if excluded, can simply transfer to another event and if the Federation wanted to exclude them from the next chosen event, they have to produce peer reviewed evidence for that new event with the specific cohort of competitive athletes.

With boxing... the substitute federation had no opportunity to comply with those rules.

For Athletics, Cycling, Swimming et al... I am not aware of any athlete that has appealed their exclusion, nor that there is seperate robust peer reviewed scientific evidence available for each individual event.

The rules create the possibility for an athlete to medal in several events, transferring from one to another until they age out of competion, each time, requiring the federation to fund specific research, defend the challenge etc.

But... the Court of Arbitration has already ruled that biology unlines the reason for the existance of the female category...

Unfortunately.... no one is appealing on behalf of XX women who are unfairly disadvantaged by the inclusion of XY's in their competition and the IOC regulations do not specifically give them that right, in the way they give excluded competitors the right to challenge an exclusion decision.

puffyisgood · 06/08/2024 18:39

Floisme · 06/08/2024 18:28

Thanks both of you.

Does this mean IOC are in contravention of their own framework?

well... a huge part of the problem is that the IOC framework isn't intended to stand alone. it's intended to be a high level guidance that the bodies for individual sports should take into account when coming up with detailed principles. following the IOC's spat (which I daresay was the result of some genuine issues, unrelated to the sex issue) with the IBA, Olympic boxing is unique amongst the bigger sports by not having its own body that's recognised by the IOC... so the IOC had to do without a set of detailed principles for boxing and instead basically made things up as it went along. you can see how well it's going so far.

Floisme · 06/08/2024 18:44

Thanks @ChateauMargaux and* *@puffyisgood I'm still digesting your posts so I may be some time!

lcakethereforeIam · 06/08/2024 18:44

The use of 'ad hoc' in their explanation for drawing up the guidelines really, really annoys me.

SabrinaThwaite · 06/08/2024 18:46

Lia Thomas appealed to CAS over the World Swimming regs.

CAS determined that Thomas had no standing and the case was dismissed.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/10000_Arbitral_Award__for_publ._.pdf

Maaate · 06/08/2024 19:30

I don't know how to link whole TwiX threads, but this one is very interesting...

Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
Snowypeaks · 06/08/2024 19:35

Maaate · 06/08/2024 19:30

I don't know how to link whole TwiX threads, but this one is very interesting...

Good point. If the caption is correct. He looks like the little boy on his father's hip. Is there a date on the original photo?

BettyFilous · 06/08/2024 20:09

ChaChaChooey · 06/08/2024 14:06

The Science of Sport podcast is generally excellent - who knew that fancy trainers and American Football related brain injuries could be so interesting?

It’s a bit like the MN saying ‘Came for the pram reviews, stayed for the feminism’. I started listening to the episodes on sex differences in sport a couple of years ago but now I listen to all of it regularly.

This particular podcast features (seasoned sports journalist) Sean Ingle of the Guardian asking a very sensible question and getting an absolutely nothingburger of an answer back from that Mark whatsit of the IOC. It’s genuinely flabbergasting that a press conference could give such a non-answer.

Puts me in mind of the Trump Whitehouse. Press Secretaries!

Same here @ChaChaChooey I listened to Ross and Gareth Davies rave about the canoe slalom (can’t remember the proper name) on my way home. I’m not even that into sport but I listen regularly to their podcast. Their daily Olympics episodes are hugely informative.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:12

Imane is stated as being the eldest of 5 so bottom right is definitely Imane. The only thing I would say is I had a very androgynous looking daughter and I sort of recognise the serious feminine dressing up to make sure everyone knew she was a girl. The number of looks I got when I said her name, you could tell some thought I'd given my son an obvious girls name. She's now going through puberty and looks female unlike Imane

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 20:13

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:12

Imane is stated as being the eldest of 5 so bottom right is definitely Imane. The only thing I would say is I had a very androgynous looking daughter and I sort of recognise the serious feminine dressing up to make sure everyone knew she was a girl. The number of looks I got when I said her name, you could tell some thought I'd given my son an obvious girls name. She's now going through puberty and looks female unlike Imane

This is ridiculous however. You have no idea who's actually in that photo.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:18

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 20:13

This is ridiculous however. You have no idea who's actually in that photo.

True it could be some random family. But there is no reason to think it isn't genuine. I believe at that age Imane was treated as a girl however that doesn't mean biologically imane is female. And I definitely do not think they should be boxing in the women's category at the Olympics

PepeParapluie · 06/08/2024 20:18

Even if the child in the photo is Imane, it doesn’t prove anything except that before puberty, they thought he was a girl. That still fits with the 5-ARD hypothesis.

If Khelif really wanted to prove it, then instead of childhood photos, he could do a test.

PepeParapluie · 06/08/2024 20:19

BettyFilous · 06/08/2024 20:09

Same here @ChaChaChooey I listened to Ross and Gareth Davies rave about the canoe slalom (can’t remember the proper name) on my way home. I’m not even that into sport but I listen regularly to their podcast. Their daily Olympics episodes are hugely informative.

Me too! I learnt a lot about the walking race while weeding my garden 😁

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 20:20

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:18

True it could be some random family. But there is no reason to think it isn't genuine. I believe at that age Imane was treated as a girl however that doesn't mean biologically imane is female. And I definitely do not think they should be boxing in the women's category at the Olympics

You can believe what you like, but there is zero evidence about what Khelif's early life was like. As you also point out, it doesnt matter

Floisme · 06/08/2024 20:22

I'm not interested in Khelif's family photos. I'm interested in why the IOC won't run a test that would settle the issue.

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 20:23

Floisme · 06/08/2024 20:22

I'm not interested in Khelif's family photos. I'm interested in why the IOC won't run a test that would settle the issue.

This

Maaate · 06/08/2024 20:24

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:18

True it could be some random family. But there is no reason to think it isn't genuine. I believe at that age Imane was treated as a girl however that doesn't mean biologically imane is female. And I definitely do not think they should be boxing in the women's category at the Olympics

So if it's a picture of Imane plus their brother and sister, which one is the sister?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:32

I've just realised that photo is cut off, you can just see the edge of another child wearing a denim jacket on the right of the picture. So who is that, why has the picture been cut off, you wouldn't normally take a picture with only a child's arm on it.

Keenovay · 06/08/2024 20:39

Does anyone know whether the BBC are broadcasting the boxing semi final tonight at 930? Have only seen a lot of listings that say they are "potentially" showing it. Apologies if this has been covered upthread - this topic keeps on growing!

FlippinFumin · 06/08/2024 20:59

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 20:32

I've just realised that photo is cut off, you can just see the edge of another child wearing a denim jacket on the right of the picture. So who is that, why has the picture been cut off, you wouldn't normally take a picture with only a child's arm on it.

The cut off person looks taller than the child in pink.

DuesToTheDirt · 06/08/2024 21:04

A lot of people are really invested in this. Like others on these threads, I am getting lots of facebook posts about it, presumably because I liked or commented on some. One of my comments now has about 100 replies! I read the first few, some agreeing with me and some disagreeing, and then facebook stopped showing me the replies. There might be a way I can view them I think, but perhaps I'd rather not. There is such ignorance and disinformation that it just makes me angry - "Khelif has a vagina," "Khelif has ovaries," "Khelif has been beaten before so can't be a man," "Khelif was brought up as a girl and deserves to fight as a woman," "You have a transphobic agenda," "Carini was just a sore loser," and other nonsense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 21:09

It's because it's just enough to pierce the cognitive dissonance, so they must defeat it.

OP posts:
Keenovay · 06/08/2024 21:20

Keenovay · 06/08/2024 20:39

Does anyone know whether the BBC are broadcasting the boxing semi final tonight at 930? Have only seen a lot of listings that say they are "potentially" showing it. Apologies if this has been covered upthread - this topic keeps on growing!

(There's women's boxing on BBC Olympics extra just now, accessed via the red button. Wu vs Kyzaiba. Not the contentious semifinal match - but perhaps that will be on after this one?)

borntobequiet · 06/08/2024 21:25

Maaate · 06/08/2024 20:24

So if it's a picture of Imane plus their brother and sister, which one is the sister?

Edited

Presumably the baby, not that it matters.

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