Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

[AShortName]

The more this misinformation spreads, the more people will believe it. I am concerned that if it continues, then it will soon become regarded as a truth.

Lynsey Sharp interview - heartbreaking.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4JeLO8RCtoQ

There was a full on onslaught of silencing female athletes.

Boxing is a contact sport. The wrongness is more obvious. Also we've had years of misogynistic, Orwellian shite by now.

This very useful chart and comments were posted yesterday by @AIstolemylunch
I hope they won’t mind me re posting them.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

Slide 12 shows 5ARD - what Caster Semenya and likely these boxers have - ends up with a functional male that can process testsoterone and goes through a male puberty - shouldn't be in women's sports.

Slide 21 shows Sywer Syndrome - genetically male but end up as non fertile woman - could conceivably be allowed in women's sports but other health problems are unlikely to favour getting to elite level.

This is what the TRAs have done to poor people with DSDs - we will now have to go down to this level of detail in all cases when an XY individual tries to compete in women's sports. You can see why it will end up no XY at all but I think that is the only way. The XY individuals who should be treated as women - those with CAIS or Sywers - are unlikley to be at elite sporting level anyway due to other concomitant health conditions. So if it only excludes the 5ARD type cases where they only have ambiguous genitalia but are functionally male and go through male puberty then that is what is needed. No XY individuals that have gon ethorugh male puberty in womens sports certainly.

That is so upsetting. Can this kind of DSD male still enter races with women in the Olympics, do you know?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they can.

They would no longer meet the allowable testerone levels for a female athlete.

Sorry I should have specified - this is for Athletics.

thank you @Shortshriftandlethal

And is there evidence that this person has a DSD? Or could they just be a plain old man?

In theory DSD track and field athletes can but have to reduce T to 2.5 n/mol for at least 6 months.

Semenya tried and performance went through the floor. Seems to be the same for Mboma that took silver in the 200m at Rio but couldn’t qualify for Paris under the new regulations.

I think it would be much fairer to follow World Swimming’s lead which says nobody that’s been through male puberty can compete in women’s events - I’m uncomfortable about athletes taking drugs to suppress T.

worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6A%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520Eligibility%2520Regulations%2520for%2520the%2520Female%2520Classification%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520effective%252031%2520March%25202023

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

kind of?

Swyer syndrome
1 in 80,000 births
or 1 in 20,000

Rare
Would not have gone through male puberty, would not look like a man, would not have high testosterone. So not like the two boxers.

AFFECTED POPULATIONS
Swyer syndrome affects girls who have an XY chromosomal makeup, no ovaries, but functional female organs including the uterus, fallopian tubes and vagina. The exact incidence is unknown. One estimate placed the incidence at 1 in 80,000 births. Another estimate placed the incidence of Swyer syndrome (complete gonadal dysgenesis) and partial gonadal dysgenesis combined at 1 in 20,000 births. Genital anomalies in general occur in approximately 1 in 4,500 births.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

I remember when I visited Georgia, going up into the mountains and being told the highest peak I could see was "the tallest peak in Europe."
I was surprised, because up until then I'd always been taught that the tallest peak in Europe was Mont Blanc.
By some definitions it is, by others it's Mt Elbrus in the caucasus.
This doesn't mean that K2 might actually be the tallest peak in Europe.

I think " now they're saying " has become very Trumpian language. It's best to name sources.

But they do not belong to the mother. They belong to the child.

Just because you say you’re something, it doesn’t mean you are…

@ScrollingLeaves

This is what the TRAs have done to poor people with DSDs - we will now have to go down to this level of detail in all cases when an XY individual tries to compete in women's sports.

I do not think it is beyond the wit of man to devise a testing regime that would protect candidates' privacy. In any case most people know if they have a relevant DSD, so the existence of unambiguous guidelines would stop them putting themselves up in the first place (or being put up by an unscrupulous promoter).

Plus suppressing testosterone does not remove male advantage in terms or reach, heart and lunch capacity, muscle twitch speed etc.

From what i have seen on social media, a lot of women want to be seen as kind and inclusive, and a lot of men are using it as a stick to beat women with, gleefully calling the Italian boxer weak and a cry baby. I have seen several men on Facebook saying that women's sports are pointless anyway, even the Williams sisters, who are the best female tennis players in the world, hold meaningless titles as a mediocre man can beat them. The misogyny on show is appalling.

Seriously? It was huge at the time and led to the IAAF's new rules and a CAS case which ended up with the Semanya ban.

Seriously? It was huge at the time and led to the IAAF's new rules and a CAS case which ended up with the Semanya ban.

Yes seriously. We don't have the same lives.

No, they can't.

Thank you, LilyBartsHatShop, the 'Gish Gallop' does the job nicely.
Clever you! All I could think of was 'chaff', as in the strips of aluminium dropped from planes to confuse radar.

You have also proven my point that somebody on MN knows everything. Or vice versa. Put out an obscure question, and some clever MNer, eg LilyBartsHatShop, will get back to you with an answer, it has never failed for me so far!

The wikipedia link is well worth reading, it even suggests countermeasures.

I think that the evidence from which it can be inferred is the possession of a female passport, implying a female birth certificate, in a country in which to be transgender is unacceptable. So it's very likely that superficially female genitalia were observed at birth.

This piece of paper is doing a lot of heavy lifting, for an XY individual with a masculine physique, T in the male range, and, quite possibly, male genitalia (I only recently found out that in over half of cases, puberty causes the testicles to descend and/or the penis to grow)!

I feel so sorry for the female boxers. It's blatant self-ID.

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to the debate in Parliament about simplifying the GRC after this row. Nothing shows how low it can go like the IOC.

Handling this situation requires cool heads and sensitivity to those who's gender is more biologically complex.
It's their sex not their gender that's the issue. Do keep up.

It must be hugely demoralising to realise not one person involved in the olympics or the journalists covering it care about your safety or fairness. They'd happily sacrifice your life in the ring to prevent any male boxers feeling a bit sad.