Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Archive version. https://archive.ph/55vZG

But the BBC’s not biased, amirite?

I've searched bbc website and can't find any reference to the press conference. Something seriously stinks in this situation. Its probably all that testosterone

Can someone tell me if bodies such as world athletics, who don't allow men with DSDs to to compete in the female category unless they lower their testosterone, do cheek swabs or any other tests? How do they monitor it?

Wow. Surprised at this. Not a bad article.

There's Independent story links all over by FB feed, and as far as I can see, they're even more captured than the Guardian.

But how would you have known if some of the people competing against Simone Biles had been transwomen? /sarcasm

It's not unthinkable that the floor gymnastics, uneven bars etc. might showcase individual strength and agility spectacularly well. I noted that the women's trampoline seemed mostly to be 'average' height women rather than the very small women in other gymnastic disciplines.

I don't think it's implausible that the scoring of some disciplines may well shift to favour different aspects and skills. The marked shift towards scoring reflecting increased difficulty might favour sequences and manoeuvres that reflect substantially greater strength over time. The flexibility of martial artists convinces me that flexibility and artistry can be acquired over time.

Usually they are definitely much more mealy mouthed - but the article on the press conference is the clearest I've seen from any MSM

The independent’s report is surprisingly clear and direct actually. That’s cheered me up a bit!

I didn't realise that the dr that was speaking is president of the European Boxing Confederation. So that's another boxing governing body in addition to the WBO and the IBA being very clear that these boxers are male.

.

Good to see some balance in the Independent article.

I can’t believe the BBC walked out though. They were sent there to cover the conference. Journalists aren’t supposed to walk out of meetings in protest. That makes them part of the story, instead of impartial observers there to record the facts.

As for the Russia stuff... I don’t think it matters too much whether the IBA is corrupt. Isn’t this all a bit “I won’t listen to information I don’t like if it comes from bad people or right-wingers, lalala”?

What actually matters is the fact there is a question mark over the sex of two boxers in the women’s category. This confusion could so easily be resolved but the IOC doesn’t want to know. Even though they could be putting women’s lives at risk.

Spot on - boxing administration is famously iffy (how else can you explain why there are multiple different world champions at each weight category?) but boxing administrators have no incentive to normalise mixed-sex boxing. Surely there's no mass market for that?

Agreed CorruptedCauldron

Perhaps the IBA should have addressed this head on: "Yes, we know you all hate us but whatever you think about us as an organisation, the fact remains that these boxers are male".

And it can be proved or disproved so easily. This isn’t a he said, she said scenario where a jury is needed to decide who is telling the truth. The truth can be discovered with a simple test!

The argument was an uphill struggle as soon as the focus was on the two boxers and not IOCs policy. It went straight back to the caster debate and all the same rhetoric. Once the two boxers were the “victims” it became so easy for the IOC. The IBA would have been better to continue to respond in press release format, but they to had to make it about them.

I think in essences the debate boils down to two moral principles that usually go together but in this case are at odds:

Inclusivity
Fairness

What makes it so hard to move forward is that huge swathes of the progressive liberal left is in complete denial. They're engaging in "cakeism" and act as though you can have both unrestricted inclusivity AND complete fairness in every and all situations (and screw safety while we're at it).

The lack of honesty, self-awareness and, well, basic rationality, from the self-proclaimed enlightened, intelligent, educated and morally superior section of society (of which I was once proud to call myself a member) is truly depressing.

I think it was Sharron Davies who said the principles need to be safety, fairness and inclusivity, in that order. These boxers fail the first two points.

The lack of honesty, self-awareness and, well, basic rationality, from the self-proclaimed enlightened, intelligent, educated and morally superior section of society (of which I was once proud to call myself a member) is truly depressing.

The epistemic class | new elite has well and truly lost the plot in some areas.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

And, in many ways, it's distressingly in line with Mark Fisher's Exiting the Vampire Castle.

The problem that the Vampires’ Castle was set up to solve is this: how do you hold immense wealth and power while also appearing as a victim, marginal and oppositional? The solution was already there – in the Christian Church. So the VC has recourse to all the infernal strategies, dark pathologies and psychological torture instruments Christianity invented, and which Nietzsche described in The Genealogy of Morals. This priesthood of bad conscience, this nest of pious guilt-mongers, is exactly what Nietzsche predicted when he said that something worse than Christianity was already on the way. Now, here it is …
The Vampires’ Castle feeds on the energy and anxieties and vulnerabilities of young students, but most of all it lives by converting the suffering of particular groups – the more ‘marginal’ the better – into academic capital. The most lauded figures in the Vampires’ Castle are those who have spotted a new market in suffering – those who can find a group more oppressed and subjugated than any previously exploited will find themselves promoted through the ranks very quickly.
The first law of the Vampires’ Castle is: individualise and privatise everything.
…

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

A few years back a male who identified as a not-man posted on here to say we should petition for new Olympic sports that female-women could naturally excel at, iirc ze suggested ‘sliding under a low pole’.

The bbc live broadcast has the conference on live now

The clip of the man saying they were ineligible and the loc did noting with it.

But they're going on about whether the tests are trustworthy

Ah but then you can just change the definitions of safety and fairness. We have always been at war with Eastasia.