Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

The way men are rallying around these boxers is very familiar. They are not being treated the way wronged females would be (forgotten, smeared, mocked, unheard), but with the softly-softly infantile approach commonly presented to men who believe they're women. There's a real sense of comradeship in the way they outright celebrate their "wins" against women.

I was wondering if brotherly love or woman-hate was their main driver, then I read Reddit (why do I never learn) and got my answer: "Hungarian lady talked shit, got smacked."

Yes, I completely agree.

same!
(sorry, haven't read full thread, sure it's moved on by now!)

Same, likewise.

Thread on that 'But 9 defeats!' claim: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1819362323858915701.html

Five were in the first 6 competition fights, one more in the next 3. Every single one was against a boxer with substantially more experience, and before the age at which a male typically develops full strength.

I don't think this Telegraph article has been posted yet

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/04/imane-khelif-ioc-iba-gender-test-report-june-lin-yu-ting/

https://archive.ph/Fqf49 tap here to cross-cross the paywall

A little more about the IBA tests, when they were reported to the IOC, who play the balls not the men.

From the Telegraph

Adams was speaking as Taiwan’s Lin faced protests from her opponent as she was guaranteed a medal at the Paris Olympics.
As Lin swept into her semi-final just as easily as <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Fqf49/www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/03/boxing-paris-2024-live-imane-khelif-v-anna-luca-hamori-66kg/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Imane Khelif had donene the night before, losing Bulgarian opponent Svetlana Staneva pulled off her gloves, pointed to herself and <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Fqf49/www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/04/boxing-paris-2024-live-lin-yu-ting-gender-row-latest-update/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">made a double tap X symbololwith her fingers. The Bulgarian’s coach had also been holding a white piece of paper with the words “I only want to play with women I am XX” scrawled on it.

See below for Svetlana's protest:

x.com/crunchalias/status/1820048032475271461?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

I hadn't seen the video til now, only the photo.

She double taps the X!

However, the body insisted that the tests should be regarded as illegitimate as they were conducted on an ad-hoc basis in the middle of last year’s World Championship.

Why is the IOC disputing the legitimacy of these tests on the basis of them being ‘ad hoc’?

The tests were requested by the sport’s governing body at a competition when it had the control and facilities to conduct them. Why is this any different to World Athletics testing Mboma and Masilingi at a training camp in Italy?

I remember Ross Tucker saying about Oscar Pistorius that it was up to him to prove no advantage by running with blades rather than the IOC to prove there was an advantage. Don't understand why a DSD is treated like an advantage has to be proven rather than an advantage disproven.

I assume as well they were conducted because of a test which indicated high testosterone or something else.

The gall of the IOC to claim the tests are illegitimate, that would be fine to claim if they have done similar tests and disproven the results but they haven't and the IOC President(?) had to correct the record when he said they weren't DSD cases, which means either he knows they are DSD or they can't definitively say they aren't because they haven't tested

I hadn't seen the video til now, only the photo.

She double taps the X!

It's iconic.

Oo I made my first complaint to the newspaper regarding this article, which refers to 'two female boxers' in the first sentence. I think the article has been edited since I read it, as it goes into more detail about the IBA tests than it did. (Must copy the article rather than the link next time). Anyway, I just got a reply:

Thanks for getting in touch regarding this important story.

^https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/olympics/olympics-2024-boxing-why-the-two-women-at-centre-of-gender-row-are-allowed-to-compete-in-paris/HR3J27F7U5B37PSVULC5UTRJFE/^

The piece we published accurately explains the grounds on which the IOC allows the inclusion of Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting in the women's boxing at the Paris Olympics.

The piece correctly notes they were previously banned by the IBA.

We are aware of the current debate over this gender issue and have reported extensively on this.

The fact remains that both boxers were accepted for entry into the women's competition at this Olympics.

Therefore in an article focusing squarely on this Olympics it is not inaccurate to refer to both as "female boxers".

I'm thinking I'll reply that being accepted for entry into a women's competition at the Olympics does not mean someone is female (you'd think NZ media would remember that from last time) and they are publishing incorrect information as fact.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13708773/controversial-gender-row-boxer-imane-kahlif-address-critics-olympics.html

The head tilt in that video! Just where have we seen that before?

Unless there's some context I've missed, I assume all she's saying here is that she enjoys turning on the TV, watching a few minutes of a sport she knows nothing about, and then pretending she's an expert who knows all the rules.

BBC News - Peaty questions China relay win amid doping row
www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cxx226nlgrwo

An interesting read on the BBC website this morning with swimmer Adam Peaty saying "there's no point winning if you're not winning fair". He also said regarding the (possible) doping "To the people that need to do their job - wake up and do your job." "Positive tests in 2021 were not made public at the time." "We have to have faith in the system but we also don't", said Peaty". "If you're cheating, it's fraud".

We can probably spot the parallels....

Compare and contrast. Well done the BBC for very clear reporting of a (possible) Olympic fraud that may have impacted British men's medal chances. No worries about upsetting the IOC here then? Got to safeguard the elite mens competition.

Has anyone countered with 'They were born and raised as cheats'?

A number of posters across the various boxing threads have mentioned a flood of pro khelif posts on Facebook and other SM. Has there been a similar level of pro Lin messages?

I've not seen them personally, no. All about Khelif.

No. I had one of my oldest friends say that I was wrong to post about Khelif being male,just because of 'some gender test or other'. I replied with evidence,then I was told that her family said she was female. I replied again,with facts. Then I got that I was being unfair,it was hateful to say she wasn't a woman.
Where have we seen this before?
I'm sad that someone so intelligent and supposedly feminist would back a male hitting women for glory. But here we are......

I had an acquaintance on Facebook tell me she thought I “was better than that” to post about the IOC turning beating up women into a spectator sport. She then launched into the standard “she was born and raised female. Be kind.” rhetoric that just made me 🙄🙄🙄

No Lin Yu Ting messages. All Khelif. Lin Yu Ting seems to have flown under the radar a bit in comparison.
But it is interesting to note that if we're talking about such rare cases of DSDs, why is it that there are two boxers with (I'm assuming here) the same condition in the finals?
Could it be, that this gives an advantage, and could it also be the case that these athletes are being scouted for this advantage? see also Rio 800m podium, what would be the chances that this happened accidentally?
My next question is - if this is allowed to continue, how many boxers with this advantage will there be in the finals in 4 years time? If the only criteria according to the IOC is "an F on the passport"?

the relative degree of scrutiny afforded to the two cases is interesting. I suppose it's maybe because, to western eyes, really overtly masculine facial features are less common amongst people of recent east asian descent. but to me (I'm no boxing expert) it's the Taiwanese fighter who looks nailed-on for a gold. i don't think the Algerian one looks quite good enough. the other fighter's height and reach are absolutely ridiculous for a fighter in a relatively low weight class.

Be Kind was rinsed out by transactivists about 4 years ago.

Since then, more and more women have completely run out of fucks to give.

I agree with all of this. It also seems to me that Lin's demeanour is less stereotypically male (which could be cultural).

Lin actually looks very male to me due to facial features and especially the larger than usual by male standards Adam's apple. I'm equally outraged about both.