Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

That is very useful. Thank you.

It was very clear that the OP refuses to read anything outside the very narrow parameters of ‘safe’ authors. This is a person professing to have a PhD and written peer reviewed papers.

I think that said everything that any of us needed to know about extreme trans activists, as if we needed reminding.

I imagine they will just say 'this is the test that was taken - details of', and that they were disqualified on the basis of the results. That way they don't actually have to say what the results were. The options are basically XX or XY, so it'll be fairly obvious...

I’m still wondering why Swyer’s is a female condition rather than a male.
And what would happen if someone were treated with testosterone rather than oestrogen.

I realise it’s not relevant, but it’s useful to know in the conversation.

Yes I'm interested in understanding that too.

Sywers, or XY complete gonadal dysgenesis, is a male DSD condition.

Most of them are tbh as it is the SRY gene on the Y chromosome that is male-determining so it when this goes wrong in many cases.

It used to be the case that the job of academics and journalists was to investigate things and clarify them to the public. All this is reminding me that nowadays it's all about obfuscation and making straightforward matters seem bewilderingly complex. It comes across as part ideological war and part grift.

You need to follow Zach on twitter. He explains the complexities of human sexual differentiation, both normal and when itvgoes wrong in DSDs, really well, with videos and animations.

https://x.com/zaelefty?t=Gaxz_QasCwti49746Bintg&s=09

I think an individual with Swyers is technically male.

But they are also insensitive to testosterone and other androgens so there's no point giving tessterone to them, I presume? They have female internal sex organs which are often viable, although they don't produce eggs. So it makes sense to use oestrogen because at least they can utilise it. And of course they also have a female phenotype.

These are brilliant. Show the normal male/female pathways and how they go wrong in various (v rare) DSDs.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/sex-development-charts

Of course being genetic condituons, there is obviously a hereditary componnet in some cases and you get clusters of condituons like the bicers and caster semenya have - 5ARD XY, and thats why theyre turning up at such unlikely numbers in elite sports - follow the $$$$

I do follow him, but have never really understood why that DSD is considered female by some, although I fully understand why they are treated as female socially.

Sywer syndrome and 5 Alpha Reductase Defficiency (Caster Semenya, likely condition the boxers have) is covered after normal male and female.

Ridiculous that lay people now have to be medical and scientific experts in what are extremely rare and conplex medical conditions where something goes wrong in a foetus to stop people gaslighting us and destroying women's sports, but here we are.

So that one is male karyotype (the chromosomes/genetic potential) but the resulting phenotype (the individual you end up with as a result of the expression of the genes on your chromsomes) is functionally the same or simiar to a stamdard female - becasue they had no functioning SRY gene on the Y chromosome - due to a mutation or translocation to somehwere else (eg different chromosome) where it cpuld not be expressed.

Id consider it one of the few cases of a male DSD where you end up with someone that could reasonably be considered a woman becasue they dont end up with testes that produce testosterone and don't gonthrough male puberty. Similar to CAIS.

The only DSDs actual specialists wlukd consider femlae DSD are where there are no Y chromosomes in any of the person's cells.

Sorry about typing!

Id consider it one of the few cases of a male DSD where you end up with someone that could reasonably be considered a woman becasue they dont end up with testes that produce testosterone and don't gonthrough male puberty. Similar to CAIS.

Yes me too.

This could be huge.

Same reporter Professor Alan Abrahamson has posted a follow up on X

At daily @olympics briefing, spokesman Mark Adams confirms my reporting: IOC got @IBABoxing letter in June 2023. But Adams says without evidence tests are 'not legitimate.' I've seen Khelife, Lin tests. IOC knows, knew in 2023, New Delhi lab is CAP-accredited and ISO-certified
https://x.com/alanabrahamson/status/1820036924452618281#m

Highly respected journalist.

Alan Abrahamson
Associate Professor of Professional Practice of Journalism
One of the world’s foremost experts on the Olympic movement, Alan Abrahamson is an award-winning sportswriter, best-selling author and in-demand television analyst.
https://annenberg.usc.edu/faculty/alan-abrahamson

Awards and Honors:
AIPS international sportswriters association award (2021)
Sports Emmy for innovation, NBCOlympics.com (2016, 2014, 2008)
Track and Field Writers of America Adam Jacobs Memorial Award (2014)
L.A. Press Club sports journalist of the year (2004)
National Headliner Award (2002)

Normal Sex Differentiation in humans (mammals) - not the initial gonads are bi-potential - can go either way depending on dene expression. NOT the things that many claim that all foetuses are intially female or that female is the default pathway. This is not true. Zachary Elliot diagram shows this really well:

Thank you all for your clarification. I felt slapped down yesterday on Tandora’s thread for saying Swyer’s was male DSD and thought I’d lost the plot.

I’d already said I would treat someone with Swyers as a woman in all social respects, and would anyway never need to know. But couldn’t fathom why it was considered a female DSD.

Big sigh. I’ll head off to those articles explaining!

All the explanations are here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

The claim she is XY originated from the Russian head of the IBA after she beat a Russian boxer. The IBA was banned from the olympics due to corruption.

AP News article

This is like so many scandals - it's the lie told about when X knew that becomes the story and (I very much hope in this case) leads to the unravelling.
So many people are saying variations of "The IOC wouldn't let this happen". The scales may fall from their eyes now.

I have noticed this too. In cases like this (DSD) assigned female at birth [but later turned out to be male] is a fair description for once.

But it is a description that was wrongly conscripted by tras to describe the imposed ‘identities’ at birth of true male bodied and female bodied babies.

Now no one understands who is talking about what.

Just to add, I am against trans men competing in Women’s categories, but this is not what is happening in this scenario.