Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I think we have a problem with a lack of talent and intelligence in journalism now. There's still some heavy hitters obviously but due to a lot of media output basically being 24/7 copypasta clickbait I don't think the same level of talent is recruited anymore.

It's becoming a rarity to read an in-depth article and think yes this author is really on top of this subject. It does happen of course but I think there's less space and funding for journalists to take weeks, months or even years doing a deep dive.

AIstolemylunch

A question if you don’t mind (I saw you mention genetics on that fucked up thread so I hope you can help)

In my reading, I have seen CAIS advocates and biologists say that people with CAIS tend to have a taller average height. Due to pubertal growth is longer because the estrogen to stop height (long bone growth?) is not there.

Is this true? Because there was a poster who denied this average height difference recently on one of the threads. Do you know if it’s true?

That is very interesting! And has Swyer’s listed as female, and a XX with a translocated SRY as male.

So not clear cut! CAIS is seen as male condition despite the female phenotype, yet Swyers is considered female because of the female phenotype? Ditto the XX one.

I like the references to ‘vanishingly rare’.

There was no Russian boxer.

From Reduxx who first broke the story.

9. "The IBA only disqualified L & K because they beat Russian boxers at the 2023 championships!" No they did not. I started seeing this weird, completely false claim circulating over the last 24 hours. Khelif beat Thailand's Janjaem Suwannapheng and was set to compete against China's Yang Liu for gold in the Welterweight category. Lin beat Bulgaria's Svetlana Kamenova Staneva for bronze in the Featherweight category. They were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers in either one of their categories, and only one Russian boxer won a gold medal in the entire championship (Anastasiia Demurchian, Light Middleweight). India won the most gold medals (4) at the 2023 Women's Championship. China won the most medals overall (7). Kazakhstan won the second most medals overall (6). Russia only won 3 medals at the championship. Also worth noting that another Taiwanese boxer, Huang Hsiao-wen, won gold in the Bantamweight category. So for all the Taiwanese mouthpieces claiming Lin's disqualification was just "discrimination against Taiwan"... lol no.

Please read the thread.

even the last two pages.

Funny how a lot of that corruption occurred under the Wu presidency - who was concurrently serving on the IOC Exec Board and angling to become the head of the IOC.

Slide 12 shows 5ARD - what Caster Semenya and likely these boxers have - ends up with a functional male that can process testsoterone and goes through a male puberty - shouldn't be in women's sports.

Slide 21 shows Sywer Syndrome - genetically male but end up as non fertile woman - could conceivably be allowed in women's sports but other health problems are unlikely to favour getting to elite level.

This is what the TRAs have done to poor people with DSDs - we will now have to go down to this level of detail in all cases when an XY individual tries to compete in women's sports. You can see why it will end up no XY at all but I think that is the only way. The XY individuals who should be treated as women - those with CAIS or Sywers - are unlikley to be at elite sporting level anyway due to other concomitant health conditions. So if it only excludes the 5ARD type cases where they only have ambiguous genitalia but are functionally male and go through male puberty then that is what is needed. No XY individuals that have gon ethorugh male puberty in womens sports certainly.

And ‘trans men’ are female people. If they haven’t used testosterone treatment they are able to compete in female sports.

I think you mean ‘transwomen’ who are male people

It matters not one jot where the request for the tests came from. The important fact as reported is that the labs used were accredited to the Court of Arbitration for sport.

Oh, that is interesting.

I'd love to see them assert the results, get told they're not believed, and then go well off you pop, do your own test.

I want the IOC to tell the world they won't be sex testing anyone. And they'll ignore anyone who does

We've seen the excuses a million times.

Why should we? What's it to do with you? That's bigotry.

lol

He's listing the eventual resultant phenotype - i.e which of the (only 2 possible - it's binary) developmental pathways did that person get put down firstly in the womb and secondly at puberty, as a result of their sex chromosomes (which in 99.something percent of births happen normally, as designed by evolution, to make XY = a male and XX = a female), gene expression and hormone profiles that end up with testes or no testes. That's it really. Got testes, you're male. No testes, you're female.

There was no Russian boxer.

From Reduxx who first broke the story.

There was (as Anna Slatz acknowledges in a follow up post which I posted on the first page of this thread) a Russian boxer, Amineva, beaten by Khelif two matches before Khelif was disqualified. There were other Russian boxers beaten in the tournament, so it's a weird claim that Khelif was "punished" for beating a Russian. There was no Russian boxer beaten by Lin Yu Ting and LYT wasn't matched with any Russians in the tournament.

It's pure speculation. The minutes of the IBA meeting are publicly available.

Bumping my earlier post from yesterday

I think we’re being kind?

A baby born with a female appearance who still appears female but is discovered to have male chromosomes only when menses don’t begin, who is unable to respond to exogenous testosterone and thus couldn’t have the male phenotype to match the male genotype even with medical intervention is legally female (registered at birth) and socially female (socialised as a girl) (deffo CAIS, probably Swyers too?)

With 5ARD the male phenotype devolops over time, often without any medical intervention at all. Some individuals with 5ARD can even father their own kids, so deffo not female by any definition (except the IOC one!)

Swyers comes with enough additional health challenges that it’s irrelevant to sport, CAIS is over represented in sport (perhaps because CAIS individuals are taller with longer limbs than average as they have the male height gene on the Y chromosome) and comes with some training advantages in that CAIS athletes will never have to arrange training and competing around menstruation/childbirth/breast feeding etc.

5ARD seems to me to be an obvious exclusion from the female category (especially as their maleness will become apparent way before they reach the later teen years/qualify for adult competition) - I’d want to see more evidence re CAIS and sporting advantage before deciding on that one.

While I am hesitant to talk about real individuals in any detail, someone like Caster Semenya seems to me to be an obvious exclusion whereas someone like Dutee Chand likely requires more in depth medical investigation.

I think it’s worth repeating that screening tests should be done on all athletes wanting to compete in female categories LONG BEFORE the eyes of the world are on them - there is no such thing as medical privacy in top flight sports competition so to give DSD athletes the best chance at not being scrutinised in press and on social media they should be tested long before they are medal candidates at the sodding Olympic Games.

Gonads are your internal primary sex organs - testes in males - produce sperm, ovaries in females - produce egs

Obvioulsy multiple ways this can go wrong due to genetic mutations or translocations in the unfortunate 0.whatever percent of cases. Note, this is thought to be why many pregnancies end inearly miscarriage, many of these aren't viable.

I think it’s worth repeating that screening tests should be done on all athletes wanting to compete in female categories LONG BEFORE the eyes of the world are on them - there is no such thing as medical privacy in top flight sports competition so to give DSD athletes the best chance at not being scrutinised in press and on social media they should be tested long before they are medal candidates at the sodding Olympic Games.

Yes. Just like they have to pee into a cup to prove they aren't cheating by doping, there should simply be no hiding people's sex.

”Got testes, you're male. No testes, you're female”

And I have seen this applied also to streak testes too. Is this correct?

Ie. If the body doesn’t have ovaries but has testes tissue - male?

Thanks Eresh.

Lin Yu - Ting is getting glossed over a lot in this. Another male boxer in the women's competition who shouldn't be there.

Sorry you’re right, had a brain fart there

I’ve just posted in AIBU about the situation for girls incorrectly AMAB. I can’t believe they’d let us get away with being male. I’m pretty sure it would be pointed out pretty damn quick that there’d been a mistake.

Accidentally AMAB doesn’t seem to happen much at all (presumably because baby girls aren’t peeing THROUGH their enlarged clitoris so it’s relatively easy to tell apart from a penis!)

Well, yes. It’s another one of those things that only works one way.

No need to wonder if I’d be accepted as a man at the Olympics, because I’d have sod all chance of qualifying.

Royal Commentator Lady Colin Campbell is open about being raised as a boy but the story, as she tells it, is that she was an ambiguous-looking baby and so her parents chose to raise her as a boy.
She then had a fairly simple op in her teen years to open her vulva/vagina and adopted her two sons 🤷‍♀️

Lady C was born at the tail end of the 40s so firmly in the era where ‘a choice’ was made (by doctors or parents or in combo) on how to raise a sex ambiguous baby, nowadays similar babies would be DNA tested and raised in accordance with that.

I’d completely forgotten about Lady C.

Does anyone have information about the IBA press conference tomorrow? What time is it and where can we watch it?
Hoping so much that it will prove conclusive.