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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 10:07

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men? *”Two athletes competing at...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
96
BreatheAndFocus · 04/08/2024 12:29

I hope that made sense! The whole thing is enraging and is contributing to my incoherence!

ChaChaChooey · 04/08/2024 12:32

Zeugma · 04/08/2024 12:10

Esra Yildiz Kahraman of Turkey. Wednesday at 20:30 (unsure whether that’s French or UK time)

Found a Turkish language news segment that appears to be discussing Esra’s upcoming fight and maybe discussing gender/sex rules in sports more generally (from the few words that seem recognisable on the auto captions!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTmpj6Nm3wk

Any MNetters able to give us the gist of a translation?

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/08/2024 12:34

I can't speak Turkish but it looks like they are talking about volleyball in the first one!

Barbie222 · 04/08/2024 12:36

Sorry if this has already been posted, but it's now being reported that the test Khelif failed (and withdrew challenge on) did show XY chromosomes - the evidence has been leaked to news outlets: www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

biddyboo · 04/08/2024 12:40

Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 12:29

I am a bit worried by this.

I hope very much that whoever does this press conference has spent the weekend talking to people like Ross Tucker, Emma Hilton, Carole Hooven, Tommy Lundberg and the maybe Alison Sydor and Linda Blade.

Otherwise I can see it might go down as poorly as Thomas Bach’s attempt.

Hopefully the IBA will just stick to the facts. The IOC obfuscate because their position is untenable. I don't think the IBA's conference will end up just being reported on GB News etc (as is usually the case) because there is such intense media scrutiny around this now. That's my hope anyway!

Zeugma · 04/08/2024 12:42

I’ve been looking at Lin Yu Ting's Instagram. It’s very interesting. The scraggly little pony-tail/topknot adopted currently for the world's cameras is barely to be seen except in a very few photos, or for publicity posters. Otherwise it’s very much a short 'male' haircut. He’s a stylish guy and that’s fine, but in any photos with women he’s head and shoulders above them. There are also several shots of victory declarations after fights with heartbreakingly devastated-looking female opponents, and it doesn’t take much to see what they’re thinking.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 12:43

RainWithSunnySpells · 04/08/2024 11:02

Well, I have just found Tandora's 'Feminists against sex segregation in sports' thread in AIBU. 🙄

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5134116-feminists-against-sex-segregation-in-sports?page=1

It was a fucking bonkers ride. Some posters absolutely feel that they should absolutely argue for male inclusion in female sports, while fucking admitting they know nothing about sports.

It is remarkable on so many levels.

But it also was a great example of posters who declare they have all
this evidence to support their arguments but can’t be arsed to defend critiques of that evidence so won’t post it. Yet asked for evidence and informed discussion from others to gain knowledge about a topic they don’t understand. The arrogance in that position is outstanding.

And that for days they have ignored the very evidence links that was relevant to the fucking topic of the thread. Evidence they ignored for day, but wanted discussion upon demand on. Fuck that.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 12:45

biddyboo · 04/08/2024 12:40

Hopefully the IBA will just stick to the facts. The IOC obfuscate because their position is untenable. I don't think the IBA's conference will end up just being reported on GB News etc (as is usually the case) because there is such intense media scrutiny around this now. That's my hope anyway!

I hope it is great and clear and that it cuts through the IOC obfuscations.

I do think it will be reported fairly widely. Media is after follow up on this now as you say.

Signalbox · 04/08/2024 12:45

I’m loving these small but incredibly powerful acts of rebellion. Can we get this on a t shirt.

#SvetlanaStaneva

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 04/08/2024 12:49

Dominoodles · 03/08/2024 23:37

Genuine question, why can't you be female with high testosterone? 1 in 3 women have PCOS, which is often characterised by increased hormone levels and leads to issues, but they're still women.

Someone with PCOS has no where near the levels of testosterone males have.

What is the average male testosterone level nmol?

Male: 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) or 10 to 35 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L)

Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL or 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L.
https://www.mountsinai.org › tests
Testosterone Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Mount Sinai Health System - New York City | Mount Sinai - New York

Located in New York City, the Mount Sinai Health System is an integrated health care system providing exceptional patient care to our local and global communities.

https://www.mountsinai.org

Windymoore · 04/08/2024 12:49

kiterunning · 04/08/2024 11:36

@alittleprivacy
I feel exactly the same but a part of me is hopeful that this might be the moment where identity politics are exposed as a massive fraud. Stay strong women!

Christ, I hope you're right. The 1984 "2+2=5" Ness of this week is feeling overwhelming

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 04/08/2024 12:53

@alittleprivacy I've seen that "white women's tears" bullshit, other women castigated and attacking Carini, saying that Khelif is her victim. Hers, when he broke her nose! Then the inevitable Emmett Till picture.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/08/2024 12:53

ScrollingLeaves · 04/08/2024 12:49

Someone with PCOS has no where near the levels of testosterone males have.

What is the average male testosterone level nmol?

Male: 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) or 10 to 35 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L)

Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL or 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L.
https://www.mountsinai.org › tests
Testosterone Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Posted too soon.
Testosterone in women with PCOS:

*What is the nmol L of testosterone in PCOS?^

Most testosterone values in PCOS will be
≤150 ng/dL (≤5.2 nmol/L).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov>pmc
Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome: Diagnosis and Management -
NCBI

Note that serum testosterone levels in patients with PCOS seldom exceed
4.8 nmol/l.

27 Mar 2022
https://gpnotebook.com ›pages>p.
PCOS (hormonal measurements in suspected PCOS) - GPnotebook

National Center for Biotechnology Information

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Windymoore · 04/08/2024 12:55

rabbitwoman · 04/08/2024 12:17

I would hope the IBA conference will clear up a few things, but I suspect reporting on it will be very limited.

We will know what's been said, because we will follow it. It will be reported in the mail, probably, or the times, GBNews, TALKTV, but a lot of my circle would not touch those news sources with a barge pole.

So...... The world will keep turning, people will forget, it will go away - until next time.....

Also, the "Russian led" pre fix will get added to imply Putin is doing cheek swabs to hurt random athletes and undermine the west: it's mental. Fortunately,I've never been in an abusive relationship, but this feels like a very very very very small inkling of what it must be like to be gaslit (I don't mean to offend anyone,and hope I haven't: but it just feels so intense to be seeing and speaking an obvious truth ,and people,and institutions, just lie back.)

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 04/08/2024 12:58

The potential issue I'm seeing with the IBA press conference goes like so...

"IBA haven't even published the results and have been removed by the IOC because of falsification/Russian-links/whatever"

<press conference>

"IBA clearly aren't ethical, look at the publicising these poor women's private medical information"

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 04/08/2024 12:59

When people state that they don't understand gaslighting…there are people who now voluntarily won't understand that this is gaslighting on a global scale.

They're literally seeing what they're seeing, have easy access to high-quality evidence and information, yet they're stating that the evidence of their eyes and lifetime experience to date can be supplanted by "official information" and the #BeKind mantra.

Some people embrace the pre-conditions to totalitarianism while deceiving themselves as to their role in this. See Arendt or Levy on Arendt. Or this essay on Arendt's association of loneliness with totalitarianism.

"To this aversion of the intellectual elite for official historiography, to its conviction that history, which was a forgery anyway, might as well be the playground of crackpots, must be added the terrible, demoralizing fascination in the possibility that gigantic lies and monstrous falsehoods can eventually be established as unquestioned facts, that man may be free to change his own past at will, and the difference between truth and falsehood may cease to be objective and become a mere matter of power and cleverness, of pressure and infinite repetition."

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

"Totalitarianism destroys man’s ability to think, while turning each in his lonely isolation against all others"

Totalitarian movements use ideology to isolate individuals. Isolate means ‘to cause a person to be or remain alone or apart from others’. Arendt spends the first part of ‘Ideology and Terror’ breaking down the ‘recipes of ideologies’ into their basic ingredients to show how this is done:

  • ideologies are divorced from the world of lived experience, and foreclose the possibility of new experience
  • ideologies are concerned with controlling and predicting the tide of history;
  • ideologies do not explain what is, they explain what becomes;
  • ideologies rely on logical procedures in thinking that are divorced from reality;
  • ideological thinking insists upon a ‘truer reality’, that is concealed behind the world of perceptible things.
The way we think about the world affects the relationships we have with others and ourselves. By injecting a secret meaning into every event and experience, ideological movements are forced to change reality in accordance with their claims once they come to power. And this means that one can no longer trust the reality of one’s own lived experiences in the world. Instead, one is taught to distrust oneself and others, and to always rely upon the ideology of the movement, which must be right.

https://aeon.co/essays/for-hannah-arendt-totalitarianism-is-rooted-in-loneliness

<p><em>Self-Portrait in the Camp</em> (1940), by Felix Nussbaum. Nussbaum was a prominent and admired artist prior to the Nazis seizing power in 1933. He subsequently worked in exile and hiding before being murdered in Auschwitz in 1944. <em>Neue Galer...

For Hannah Arendt, totalitarianism is rooted in loneliness | Aeon Essays

Hannah Arendt enjoyed her solitude, but she believed that loneliness could make people susceptible to totalitarianism

https://aeon.co/essays/for-hannah-arendt-totalitarianism-is-rooted-in-loneliness

Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 12:59

Signalbox · 04/08/2024 12:45

I’m loving these small but incredibly powerful acts of rebellion. Can we get this on a t shirt.

#SvetlanaStaneva

That was bloody awesome.

But my heart is heavy for these women at the same time.

SabrinaThwaite · 04/08/2024 13:00

Barbie222 · 04/08/2024 12:36

Sorry if this has already been posted, but it's now being reported that the test Khelif failed (and withdrew challenge on) did show XY chromosomes - the evidence has been leaked to news outlets: www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

Goodness!

So (if that’s true) the IOC knew that Khelif and Lin were male over a year ago?

Signalbox · 04/08/2024 13:01

Does anyone know if there are any female intersex conditions that would make that person ineligible for the female category? Something like the reverse of CAIS so xx chromosomes but going through a male puberty and resulting in a male phenotype?

OP posts:
StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 04/08/2024 13:01

Windymoore · 04/08/2024 12:49

Christ, I hope you're right. The 1984 "2+2=5" Ness of this week is feeling overwhelming

As per above, I'd like to be wrong but it's set to continue and worsen. This has been a hugely successful example of totalitarianism.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 13:01

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 04/08/2024 12:58

The potential issue I'm seeing with the IBA press conference goes like so...

"IBA haven't even published the results and have been removed by the IOC because of falsification/Russian-links/whatever"

<press conference>

"IBA clearly aren't ethical, look at the publicising these poor women's private medical information"

Yep. That is to be expected.

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 04/08/2024 13:04

Signalbox · 04/08/2024 13:01

Does anyone know if there are any female intersex conditions that would make that person ineligible for the female category? Something like the reverse of CAIS so xx chromosomes but going through a male puberty and resulting in a male phenotype?

I know why people are asking questions like this.

But, at its heart, this is a living nightmare for people with VSDs. Their (sometimes traumatic) medical histories are being treated as a logic puzzle.

PoshCoffee · 04/08/2024 13:05

Signalbox · 04/08/2024 13:01

Does anyone know if there are any female intersex conditions that would make that person ineligible for the female category? Something like the reverse of CAIS so xx chromosomes but going through a male puberty and resulting in a male phenotype?

I’m not an expert at all but I can’t see how that would happen because you need testes to produce such high levels of T to induce a male puberty. The absence of the Y chromosome means that couldn’t happen.

I’m sure there are more knowledgeable MNers out there than I though.

SabrinaThwaite · 04/08/2024 13:09

Maybe worth noting that Wu Ching-kuo of Chinese Taipei, who was IBA president 2006 - 2017 and was forced to resign after the rest of the board voted to oust him for financial mismanagement, has been a member of the IOC since 1988 and joined the IOC Exec Board in 2012.

The IBA and the IOC are rather intertwined.

DrBlackbird · 04/08/2024 13:10

RainWithSunnySpells · 04/08/2024 11:02

Well, I have just found Tandora's 'Feminists against sex segregation in sports' thread in AIBU. 🙄

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5134116-feminists-against-sex-segregation-in-sports?page=1

After skim reading much of that thread, it seems to me that many women beyond the OP (and men but men also have additional motives) who are ardent supporters of gender ideology do not engage with questions seeking to highlight problematic areas of GI, eg women in sport, or reflect on those questions because of their fixed beliefs.

40 pages clearly illustrating how the belief frames everything read or heard, which leads to a (deliberate?) misreading of other’s responses. A form of confirmation bias that undermines research in seeking out evidence to support a predetermined conclusion. So really almost impossible to have a ‘discussion’.

On many threads, I am disheartened but perhaps not surprised by TRAs and TRA supporter’s refusal to a) comprehend or acknowledge the concerns of women and b) the instinctive turn to DARVO as a response.

Both quite male tactics IMO.

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