Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I wonder if it’s perhaps that theirs is high for women (but within the normal female range), and he is keeping quiet about the fact Khelif’s is high but way off the female scale. Though the IBA said it didn’t even test testosterone so this could be rubbish anyway.

Somehow this all reminds me a lot of Boris and Partygate.

So many semantic twists and turns in an effort to not have to admit a party was a party.

Likewise. It's up to those who make extraordinary claims to produce the evidence to back them up.

I'd offer this study of Female Elite Warfighters (FEW) as a comparable, comparative group. You can see the comparative testosterone levels etc. there and read the discussion of comparison to levels of lean body mass, body fat levels etc.

One stereotype of FEW has been that they represent virilized female outliers, but this was clearly not the case. Serum androgen values were within normal ranges (0.4–2.0 nmol·L−1), below typical androgenization syndromes, such as polycystic ovary syndrome and congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and well below the 5 nmol·L−1 serum testosterone limit for female Olympic athletes (31,32). The androgens, SHBG, and serum lipids were comparable to values reported for female athletes (20,33,34). None of these women qualified for metabolic syndrome by the measured parameters measured in this study (serum lipids, SHBG, BMI, waist circumference, and serum androgens) (35).

McClung HL, Spiering BA, Bartlett PM, Walker LA, Lavoie EM, Sanford DP, Friedl KE. Physical and Physiological Characterization of Female Elite Warfighters. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2022 Sep 1;54(9):1527-1533. doi: 10.1249/MSS.0000000000002942. Epub 2022 May 27. PMID: 35621397; PMCID: PMC9390221.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9390221/

Mixed relay athletics on the BBC at the moment. The difference in body shape and size between the men and the women in each quartet is of course obvious. It's not even like comparing a weightlifter to a pole vaulter - these are all track athletes running the same discipline!

Don't be a silly billy, nobody can tell which are the men and women. You might be discriminating against masculine looking women with your obvious bigotry.

Have you asked them their pronouns?

I mean it’s impossible to tell isn’t it? It’s only the swimming costumes that give it away…

I've passed all my IOC tests too. I'll book a flight now!

My mum hasn't got a passport. Does that mean she's not a woman?

Two years in mascara and Tyson Fury could apply for a female passport.

Then the medical president of the IOC said that it's really normal in boxing that the athletes' testosterone is high. For all the girls it is the same. Imane is not alone in this case.

This is such nonsense. The testosterone ranges for males and females are poles apart.

Your mum, along with me, are doomed to walk in the inbetween neither female or male. Just existing sexless!

I can't say I've noticed much difference from when I was definitely female as I had a passport then.

You dont even need to wait 2 years if you get a doctors letter and change your name by deed poll

Gender change
Send one of the following when you apply for a passport:

• a Gender Recognition Certificate
• a new birth or adoption certificate showing your acquired gender
• a letter from your doctor or medical consultant confirming your change of gender is likely to be permanent

If you’re sending a letter from your doctor or medical consultant and you’re changing your name, you’ll also need to supply both of the following:

• evidence of your change of name (such as a deed poll)
• evidence that you’re using your new name (for example a payslip, or a letter from your local council)

If you apply via the "crossdresser route" you don't need a doctors letter or a GRA, they're fine with you just writing a "declaration" to change the sex on your passport.

Crossdressers
We can only issue a passport if it is established the customer is using their new identity for all purposes. You, the examiner, must not issue a passport in a name or gender a customer uses for some but not all purposes.
If the customer cannot provide medical evidence, they must make a statement confirming they permanently use the preferred identity. They must also have a referee confirm their new identity and send us evidence if they have changed their name (see Names – evidence to change a name).
You must scan the customers signed statement that confirms they use the preferred identity on the application (see gender recognition: scanning supporting documents).
www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition/gender-recognition-accessible

Has anyone checked the pronouns of that pole vaulter who dislodged the pole with their crown jewels?

It appears the BBC we’re going to have ScienceofSport on to discuss this issue a day or so ago, but instead dropped him for <checks notes> Joanna Harper and Kellie Maloney - both transwomen, one who claims there is no male advantage post-transition and one ex-boxing promoter who used to beat up his wife 🤦🏻‍♀️

Starmer could solve the male unemployment problem with this. Send them all to the Olympics as female athletes. Job creation scheme.

I never get tired of saying the BBC is a disgrace to this nation.

Joanna Harper is a complete joke as a researcher.

For those who would like to give their Olympic viewing an added twist (and if they think that their blood pressure can take it) you can now play "spot the male participants" in Female Judo, Taekwondo, wrestling and Greco-Roman wrestling.
On X the Women's Rights Network has said "The women's boxing fiasco has opened our eyes to the misogyny that lies at the heart of the Olympics" and goes on to name the above Female sports. Sharron Davies has said that she has spoken to female competitors in these combat sports who have said that there are males in these female sports.

Wasn't it Harper's work that prompted Blade's famous

"N=8" denotes the number of male born runners it took to change the rules of sport for ALL female athletes in the world across ALL sports.

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) changed transgender participation rules in 2015 based upon a single flawed study of eight male runners who self-reported a reduction in their running times after undergoing hormone replacement therapy.

nequals8.com/

Pin the spegg on the cheat!

Meant to quote this, doh

Just heard a ridiculously biased report about this on Sky News - about the abuse the two fighters are facing, the hate speech, the dubious testing - all while accompanied by pictures of the boxers in question looking incredibly male.

As I scroll down Facebook, every third or fourth post is from some group that I don't follow, and it is a propaganda piece saying the Imane Khelif is female and any questioning is a bigot. Over and over this message is repeated. Someone has paid for those posts to appear under my nose, and those posts will be appearing on many other people's feeds, too. Some people won't question the message, it will just sink in.

Who is paying for this propaganda?

I've noticed the same. I was c&p'ing my explanation on each, but I'm honestly bored of being told "she has a vagina, she was born a woman, look at the cute little girl pictured"