Anti GC online abuse

[NotNowFGS]

I rose to it today. Couldn't help myself. Challenged a couple of folk on Twitter who were responding positively to my batshit TRA MPs statement on Twitter about the Olympic boxing business. I'm always polite. I ask questions and challenge gently here and there, but good god they always get abusive. I never learn.

This is a sign that they are actually not secure in their beliefs. They have doubts and you've reminded them of that, so you must be punished.

Sometimes it’s worth posting anyway. If they’re posting misinformation, by correcting it you won’t change their mind, but a neutral bystander might read what you say and stop to think about it.

I wish everyone would stop. The boxer is not trans. The boxer is not trans. The boxer is not trans. What this case shows is :-

1. Some people who purport to be gender critical just have an ick factor for women who are at the edges of the spectrum and essentially "look more like men". This is not a good gender critical view and hurts the reputation of those arguing clearly for the definition and protection of women.

1. Sex is a complicated thing involving chromosomes hormones epigenetics and physical organs - it is genuinely sometimes possible to question the binary, who knew?

1. The case that people who are within the definition of male should not be playing sport with people within the definition of female is STILL a vital case and STILL needs to be made!!! This example is NOT the poster child for that campaign, in fact it's simply making us look like we are intolerant to women who "look a bit like men"; and like people who ignore the facts due to prejudice - both of which are exactly the opposite of the gender critical perspective.

Why?? Why has it taken off like this? I am shocked that maybe these TERFS I heard about, these prejudiced folk, might exist after all - I've seen no evidence of them before today.

Yes, it is worth it, OP. Well done, and thanks for trying. But don’t be drawn into endlessly replying to questions that seem innocently naive but turn out to be a pointless never-ending waste of your time.

I don't think anyone has claimed that the 2 boxers are trans.

Some people pretend they are women because they have F on their passports.

Others say they are male because they have XY chromosomes.

My understanding is that they are male who but have DSDs (which ones they are doesn't seem to be in the public sphere) which caused them to be incorrectly identified as female at birth but that both the boxers themselves and their trainers have known for years that they are male.

They should be competing in the male category if they are good enough to qualify.

Good God, yet more misinformation.

@Immemorialelms have you seriously come to tell women that were wrong not to want a biological male punching women in the face?

Well thank you for sharing whatever that was?🙄

@Immemorialelms why do you think that anyone thinks these two boxers are trans? It's obvious that they have some kind of DSD, probably 46 XY 5-ARD. That is a male DSD and people with it go through a male puberty and have male physiology and male testosterone levels. It is not safe or fair for them to compete in the female categories particularly in contact sports and particularly in boxing.

It's the IOC and sporting regulatory authorities who have muddied the water and lost everyone's trust. They are the ones that need to be accountable for this mess and to sort it out. It isn't fair on these two boxers to make it personal to them and to have left them out to dry in the spotlight like this.

You're shocked that TERFS are on a GC chat? Yes, and there is gambling in the back of Rick's Cafe as well. Who knew.

This isn't about whether this person is claiming to be trans or what. The point is that a a biological male got into a ring with a woman. If you really can't see how that intersects with trans activist ideology I don't know what to tell you.

@NotNowFGS I think this thread shows that sometimes it's hard to ignore the TRA batshittery because so many of us have responded to the post about men hitting women in the boxing ring.

I mostly ignore it on Twitter but sometimes respond for the benefit of any neutrals who might come across the post.

Arguing with people on Twitter is never to end well for anyone, of any opinion on any subjecf.

Sex is a complicated thing involving chromosomes hormones epigenetics and physical organs

It's not. The vast majority of the human population (and we wouldn't exist otherwise) are XX and XY. To quote PubMed:

"If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%"

I make that 18 people in 10,000. And those are genotype vs phenotype, so they still have a male or female genotype. More rare are conditions with genotypes like XXY or similar. But typically, clearly one sex.

So no, sex isn't complicated at all. But so many people who have an XY genotype with DSD end up as female Olympians. Almost no XX genotype people winning anything as male Olympians. Because it confers advantage on one sex and not on the other. And that's why we have sex division in sports, because it makes a difference.

Gender expression is complex but it doesn't make a difference in sport.

1. Some people who purport to be gender critical just have an ick factor for women who are at the edges of the spectrum and essentially "look more like men". This is not a good gender critical view and hurts the reputation of those arguing clearly for the definition and protection of women.

Confused.com - women may look masculine, this doesn't give women the ick factor! The creepy behaviour of men in womenface gives me an ick factor though.

Men punching women in the face gives me the 'ick' factor.
People who act as apologists for this give me the 'ick' factor.
There is nothing remotely complex about this issue that couldn't be solved by a simple once in a lifetime cheek swab. 86% of female athletes wanted to retain it but the IOC ignored them and have created the situation we have today.

Calm down dear.

It is the GCs who are pointing out this is not a trans woman.

The IOC uses what is in someone's passport to enter them into male or female sports. Anyone in the UK with a GRC can get a passport in their acquired gender.

The boxer is a man. He has XY chromosomes. He has no place in women's sports.

Can I make a suggestion, Immemorialelms? Go away and listen to Ross Tucker’s science of sport podcast on this issue. Then listen to it again. Keep listening until you’ve understood it. Then feel free to come back.

Absolutely this. Clearly the IOC ave ballsed up here and it's got nothing to do with the trans issue though some GC commentators have got confused. The IOC used to test until 1998 when they stopped, leaving it to individual governing bodies. But at Paris 2024 there is no governing body for boxing hence this mess.

Sex matters in sport. Being intersex doesn't negate this. Women need protection against those with the male advantage regardless of their socialisation. I feel a bit sorry for Khelif but they know, and science tells us, that they've gone through male puberty because they are male.. And the IAB have the evidence. If they did not then Khelif would have hopped out of the ring and down to a lab to get tested and shut everyone up!

Some GC folk have got personal. Doesn't mean that this athlete should be in this competition.

And for the love of god it has nothing to do with typical standards of femininity. Terfs never took issue with Serena, and we wouldn't have batted an eyelid at Martina or Fatima either.

There's one place where we should do it though and that's in reply to our MP. Mine is a raging TRA, Nadia Whittier, and JFC the stuff she posts I can't stay silent. I've jumped on her fb and outed myself too.

Thank you for this @MrsTerryPratchett im baffled (well not really) with the constant “it’s sooooo complicated”. honestly It’s like the whole caster semanya thing never happened

though even now there are still people claiming caster is a woman 🤦🏻‍♀️

People assuming that we are appalled by this because we believe these boxers are trans (we don't) are just proving that the GC stance is not actually "anti trans". It is, and always has been, about males in females single sex space and provision, And these two boxers are male.

The two boxers in question are male. No one is saying they are trans.

I think that decimal point may have gone for a walk. 0.00018 (i.e, 0.018%) multiplied by 10,000 is 1.8. So even smaller.

Of course, people with these issues deserve empathy, health care and the opportunity to participate in sport if they wish. The problem arises when they're snaffling prizes earmarked for women and putting women athletes at significantly greater risk.

To play devil's advocate, one could say that the 5-ARD phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female because it is gonadally and somatically male and genitally superficially female (that's why they call it a complex dsd).

So they should be included in all the sports that are played using the genitals.

I think 5-ARD people are classified as male because they have male gonads and produce male gametes, i.e. sperm. They produce male levels of testosterone and their body reacts to it as any other male does. That’s what gives them advantages over females.

Castor Semenya is 5-ARD and has fathered children.