Help me present evidence to my son

[AlbertaWildRose]

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

The problem is, when you write that sort of hyperbolic post in response to a factual, eminently sensible post like that, you're kind of making the case against yourself.

Yeah I don’t read the Daily Heil

Nobody has said that trans people don't exist.

The existence of male people who want to identify as women has no bearing on what a woman actually is though.

Why would it?

@DianaAntoniaJasmine people with gender dysphoria exist. We can agree on this. Some overcome it; others choose to transition. Some seek to detransition after deciding it was a mistake. For those that transition, I wish them health and happiness. But their choice to transition and to live outwardly with gender conditioned ideas of what the opposite sex is, does not mean they have overcome chromosomal reality. Nor does it give them the right to insist that others must accept them as men/women (as the case may be). This is the bargain we have to strike. Respect for the humanity and legitimate rights of trans people, but limitations on the extent of those rights to protect children under 18 and XX females. That's a matter of balanced public policy for me. And the only way the debate ends without a complete reversal of the law on gender reassignment. I'm not right wing either. I'm a liberal, old school ideas of tolerance.

Exactly this.

A colleague of mine transitioned MtF some years ago and I was happy for her and wished her well. She had suffered for years as a man and felt better living as a woman.

But I don’t believe she actually was a woman, and I will continue to argue for the sex-based rights of women.

And like you, my politics are liberal. I’d position myself as left of centre. To dismiss people like us as right wing is too easy, and not accurate.

I've made several posts on this thread - a couple at the beginning with advice for the OP about talking to her son and one responding to your post about your friend being beaten up by 3 girls because he's a transwoman.

I'm not anti-trans. I'm not part of a hate group.

I'm a feminist who believes in biological reality and in the importance of preserving single sex spaces and in safeguarding vulnerable children and young people.

I have a book recommendation for you.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coddling_of_the_American_Mind

It's about the US but the phenomenon exists in the UK too.

It is human to disagree and to hold differing opinions (it is also a human right BTW). It is healthy, useful and develops our critical thinking skills and our intellect. It helps us to apply rigour to our ideas and to sort the wheat from the chaff. It helps us to speak truthfully.

One of the reasons why we are in such a mess right now is Safetyism (see above link).

Safetyism is an approach to policy that seeks to prioritize feelings of safety. According to Haidt and Lukianoff, this comes at the cost of academic intellectual rigor, open debate and free expression of ideas. Safetyism seeks to regulate some speech or intellectual environments by minimizing the array of ideas or beliefs that make some or most people in that environment feel uncomfortable. The Coddling of the American Mind describes a rise in this approach within higher education in the United States.

Safetyism is an ideology that places self-perceived safety, especially the feeling of being protected from disagreeable ideas and information, above all other concerns. It is based on the belief that it is harmful (including, but not limited to, being medically harmful to experience uncomfortable emotions. Compared to prior generations, one of the main differences is the belief that the world should not be organized according to what is right or wrong, but according to what is safe or unsafe.^

Yep. That is the nonsense which led to the political exploitation of the Cass report.

There isnt evidence. Its all opinions

I love JK but she should have waded in on this so quickly

Nobody knows that boxer is definitely a man

I'm not being funny but you have come to contribute to this thread and all you've done is call people bigots and abusers for having a different opinion to you. You are clearly out of touch and reading very poor sources and are approaching this from a pre-decided ideological view rather than being willing to assess real world impact and manifestation.

Given that you have called people all kinds of names, they have the right to respond.

You have assumed that people here are right wing. A sizeable number, if not majority, are centrists or left wingers who feel utterly let down by homophobic, sexist, disablist, racist and anti-religious tripe in the name of 'progress'.

And no one has bullied you. They just held you to account for your attack on them.

You haven't added anything to the debate apart from slur and third hand quotes.

So stop being a wet blanket playing the victim. You aren't.

Engage with the level of debate this subject deserves.

Im honestly not sure why people are being so patient with someone like this.

Quite! It’s the standard playbook we’ve done a bazilion times

we’re not that posters mum and we don’t have to humour them or even engage

I hope you don't mean what I think you mean here.

Safetyism means unnessecary and counterproductive overprotection. It means not letting toddlers play with dirt and encouraging students to view words in books that they disagree with (or don't understand) as "literal violence" that they should and deserve to be protected from.

It isn't writing evidence based reports commissioned by the NHS on standards of care for children and young people within NHS services.

Or don't you think that interventions which involve sterilising minors and removing their healthy body parts should be scrutinised and justified on the basis of scientific evidence and best practice as the rest of NHS medecine is?

Don't you think that children who are gender dysphoric deserve holistic care the way any other population in NHS services does?

To be blunt, safetyism is not being cautious about surgically removing young people's healthy breasts and genitals. That's called ethics.

There’s a fair bit of catastrophising, merailing and a simmering tantrum here.

It’s a fairly standard pattern we’ve all seen before.

Im not going to tell anyone to not engage, let’s face it, this is an internet forum and some will post because they think they’re being helpful and others will post because they enjoy poking people. And everything between.

It’s futile unless you enjoy the sparring.

Omg lol
Evidence based
pmsl
Yale Medical and the BMA think that’s a joke, so does anyone who has read it.
Commissioning consultants is my bread and butter dear and I would be so embarrassed to be associated with the Casstastropy.
oh dear.
thanks for the giggle

You are not being funny

correct

you are putting words in my mouth and falsely accusing me of all sorts of thoughts ideas victimhood being a wet blanket assuming I don’t read reliable sources which is all palpable nonsense designed only to insult how very mature you supercilious person

I posted hard facts and reliable sources which is more than the Cass report managed without any referencing or engaging transgender support organisations with a bit more experience than her.
i called out bigots for arriving with predetermined ideological views and they abused twisted and bullied me. They have form. They collude to twist and provoke misery! I have the evidence.

You choose to belittle and ignore my points looking only at a couple of tired retorts after 7 hours of harassment.

you may or may not be one of them but you are not adding anything but articulate insults

It's always good to see the standards of reasoning held up as superior by those that believe in gender identity.

It's staggering that anyone is taken in by the approach seen here.

@AlbertaWildRose When your son is a little older, and more mature than he is likely to be at 18, you could simply show him discussions like this* and suggest he analyses the approaches of the two 'sides' of the debate. Ask him who provides the arguments, the evidence, the questions; and who throws the ad hominems and the tantrums.

*myriad more are available, inc on MN and Twitter/X

Do you honestly believe that?

Young people are entitled to evidenced based care, surely?

Disagreeing with you, doesn’t make it an echo chamber, and it is patently not true that she only invited Echo Chamber people, because all the staff at the Tavistock were to speak. If Polly Carmichael is unable to persuade another doctor as to the benefits of what they have done under her leadership, then maybe it is time to think critically about that. Surely the refusal to engage all along has been a massive part of the issue.
It’s the same with the adult clinics- they were invited and refused to engage.

'f-A-c-T-s'

"I am right you are alllllll wrong... I am the virtue signalling queen with a degree in... errrr word salad. And some activists said so you are all evil!"

Right gotcha.

I feel totally enlightened by your superior intellect.

Next.

Which transgender support organisations do you think should have been involved in the Cass Report, out of interest?

Why should ANY transgender support groups be included?

Activists shouldn't be near health care nor reviews of protocol.

This might explain the boxing case.
@Christinapple do you really believe that male bodied people should be allowed to participate in women's sports?
This is an unhappy situation for the boxers, but does make it unfair and dangerous. Being kind does not mean being unfair or unsafe.

A simple cheek swab can protect female boxers

www.thetimes.com/article/b8a7b567-810f-4505-8c2e-e9cfb0b8132b?shareToken=985d8199b826341a38810549e4b247ca

Also, @Christinapple do you agree with Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas or Emily Bridges competing and winning in women's competitions, removing the opportunity from biological women?

Precisely.

One of the reasons we are in this mess is because activists and ideologues have been allowed to step WAY out of their remit and into medical, legal and educational decision making.

See Mia Hughes work on the WPATH files for another deeply worrying example of that in the US.

It's part of the capture. Well meaning people in well meaning institutions were so afraid of getting things wrong again in the way that society did with gay rights that they have allowed activism in too much to places where it has no place to be in a sensible democratic and ethical society.

What's the difference between a man who says he's a woman and any other man?

And why's the onus - as ever - on girls and women (in situations where they are undressed and vulnerable..) having to be the ones supposedly working this out?