Cassie'S thread about the JCJ blog - part 2

[CassieMaddox]

Other thread filled up with waffle
Still live in hope we could discuss the article.

https://janeclarejones.com/2024/07/28/tommy-robinson-far-right-populism-and-gender-criticism

Been thinking of the responses to Southport in respect of this line in particular

in the mind of patriarchal nationalists, the border marks the difference between women who belong to the men of the nation – ‘our women’ – and the women who belong to the foreigner – ‘their women.’

I think part of the issue this week has been the outrage from the far right about "our children". Last night there were reported chants of "save our children" alongside "stop the boats".

To me this resonates with the increasingly hyperbolic online discourse around safeguarding and "groomers" and highlights the need for a balanced view.

Please could I ask for good natured engagement only; if you aren't interested just scroll by. TY

Also the left

i don't really understand what the point of this is? are either of those screenshots meant to be a 'ha gotcha' moment?

You wanted Mumsnet to take down the other thread. Why on earth have you started a new one?

Quite. A fine display of whataboutery

Well you didn't wanna engage on the other thread as discussing the threat from far right white men was too surreal for you so why on earth are you on here? As the OP says, if you don't like it you don't have to join in on this one.

I asked them due to Southport. They declined, possibly because other posters on that thread complained as they wanted it to stay up.

The thread filled up, there's still stuff to say with current events. My name is in the title, so no need to comment if you aren't interested

especially considering the first one is an example of "the left" not believing a single claim by an unreputable source and highlighting how people create a narrative to push for particular outcomes.

I wonder if it will be silence if it ends up being proven lies that are being repeated?

What's also interesting is that the far-right are intentionally targeting and recruiting women and we know there are lots of GC accounts on twitter tweeting and interacting with far right content. I was quite surprised by a comment on the previous post that no one on this board could be susceptible to radicalisation - any one could be! Especially if you are following and engaging with GC accounts who increasingly post far-right propaganda and no one else in the GC space is ruthlessly calling it out. The previous thread got completely bogged down with posters repeating what is essentially a far-right talking point which is that feminism in countries like the UK is a completed project and that women have their rights and liberties and that the only risk we have is from imported misogynists from foreign patriarchal nations. It wouldn't be as mindboggling if the same posters weren't otherwise posting about women's inequalities in the UK so they obviously aren't oblivious that the work of feminism isn't done yet. The contradiction between the two thoughts is wild and it does make you wonder where they're getting their information from as the online space peddling those contradictory ideas the most are the far-right GC accounts.

This is the right

This is also the right

(my this is a fun, yet pointless game)

posters repeating what is essentially a far-right talking point which is that feminism in countries like the UK is a completed project and that women have their rights and liberties and that the only risk we have is from imported misogynists from foreign patriarchal nations.

Also TRA-adjacent, given TRAs tendency to argue that for 'cis' women (particularly if white) feminism has achieved its aims and it's transwomen who are the real oppressed now.

Yes exactly that's a great point! And yet I'm sure posters can see it when TRAs do it. It's the lack of critical thinking or willingness to engage in discussion about contradictions that concerns me about radicalisation.

agreed. I don't believe feminism is even 50% completed personally, yes some aspects have shown improvement but there are many lacking in our local society (UK).

It is very odd to read points implying uk women have little to complain about on a UK based feminist board.

It does make one realise just how many people are here for the GC rather than the feminism.

@Whatever1964
As a man do you ever stop and think for just a second about whether or not a group of women debating the protection of women's single sex rights while preserving women's other rights for healthcare really needs your input especially if it's to minimise Cassie's genuine concerns about the amplified anti abortion voices as her being scared of being left out of the group?

Yeah I do worry about it. I don't think any discussion needs my input. I try and stick to the sex/gender aspect of the board rather than the feminism. I think these topics are relevant to people of both sexes. And I'm aware my posts probably have less value than most, but hopefully more than zero.

Hi 👋 I'm glad you posted. Wanted to say that while I see what whatever and always said I liked your post on the last thread and you were right about it.

I'm of the school of thought that is that feminism needs male allies so any man giving a thoughtful and empathic input is welcome as far as I'm concerned. Start pushing MRA lines though and it's a different matter 😂

I don't think my post implied your input had zero value but I think there's a time and place for male allies to comment and I still maintain that women and feminists debating the risks to them of someone restricting abortion access Vs supporting single sex spaces isn't necessarily as relevant to both sexes or the place for men to chime in on a disagreement particularly on an anonymous board where it isn't always clear that he's a man. Not everyone will recognise usernames and I think it's important that people don't think your posts are coming from a woman's perspective.

I fully agree that feminism needs male allies but imo the important work for them to be doing is speaking to other men, not debating with women on whether their fear or concerns of right wing male violence is justified.

Exactly, and some of the liberties people imply we should be grateful for have only been achieved in our lifetimes and as we have seen can be taken away again if the tides change politically.

On the topic of women's liberties being taken away, it's important to remember that when bringing up concerns for women in Iran and Afghanistan when women are discussing their fears about the UK politically. You cant ignore the history that women there have lived under better times and achieved liberties that were stripped from them while using them as an example of why women should stop complaining because we have it better than we have in the past. We can't afford to be complacent - especially when we are seeing some feminists(!) cosying up to the right.

Yep. I think about all the people saying "Don't be ridiculous, of course no one is repealing Roe v Wade" in the states all the time. Or what happened in Poland when they elected a far right government. Or what happens to women challenging Viktor Orbans government in Hungary.

Democracy feels quite precarious to me and women could lose rights quite easily.

Quite. A fine display of whataboutery

It's not whataboutery, though - the point is a pertinent one. You have, quite rightly, been attacking the vile and despicable beliefs of the far right in this country. But if your argument is that gender-critical feminists should ally themselves with the left, then that becomes very difficult to do when large sections of the left are engaged in doing, and saying, things that are extremely offensive to any sane and decent person.

The whataboutery was to the person blaming the Olympic boxers from non-UK countries at an international event, on "the left"
It's completely irrelevant and a derail

Also my argument isn't that "GC feminists should align themselves with the left".

My argument is GC posters should stop amplifying far right messages. Nearly the entirety of the political spectrum is available to them should they want to "align", or they could choose not to. The idea that one is either far right or left is false and divisive.

Unfortunately the far right tactics of some in the last government was a distraction as it could appear people like me were being "anti-conservative" rather than "anti- far-right" when we criticised the likes of Braverman and Cates. But that's not the case.

A quick derail. Given what is happening in Sunderland at the moment, any GC feminist or, in fact anybody capable of rational thoughts, who believes that there is any overlap between the far right and civilisation needs to have a serious word with themselves.