Jane Clare Jones blog on Tommy Robinson

[CassieMaddox]

Just a really great read
https://janeclarejones.com/2024/07/28/tommy-robinson-far-right-populism-and-gender-criticism/

These are my favourite bits:

The greatest danger to women and girls has always been, and remains, the men inside their own houses. This is the nature, and the devastation, of endemic male sexual violence. It usually happens in the place, and with the people, who are supposed to be most safe. It would perhaps be comforting to imagine that we could easily identify the men who are dangerous – the Muslims, the brown ones, the ones in dresses – and then we could keep ourselves safe by keeping them out. But the argument materialist feminists made throughout the early years of the gender wars applies equally here: men are a statistical danger to women as a class and there is prima facie no way of working out which ones are dangerous and which ones are not.

The argument is no longer ‘guilt by association’ or ‘purity politics,’ it is now a) What even is the far right anyway?, b) The far right doesn’t mean anything because I was called far right for knowing men aren’t women, c) You people think anyone who disagrees with you is far right, and d) He is not far right anyway. That is, it has moved from claiming that association with the far right is either not happening or if it is happening has no impact on the substance of GC discourse, to people openly associating with the far right and recycling far right talking points while denying that the far right is the far right.

But what feminist women have tried, largely unsuccessfully, to get across, is that these kinds of men are not on ‘your side,’ if ‘your side’ is genuinely defending women’s rights. These men are on their side, and their side wants a largely white patriarchal nation, in which ‘their’ women know their place and are ‘protected’ only insofar as ‘protection’ means keeping them guarded from ‘other’ men.

The pictures at the end of the article are very illuminating too.

Brava JCJ 👏

"I'm not commenting on Aja here

but

. . . divisive idiot . . . partially responsible for the kinds of rioting we are now seeing . . . scummy"

I see we have moved on from discussing what you quoted in your OP as your "favourite bits" from JCJ's blog post to blaming women for men rioting at other times in other places.

Are you sure those were your "favourite bits"? Not the opening sentence? Or the repeated references to an unidentified "event" in Brighton in 2022?

I must confess that it had not struck me until now, since the discussion has taken a turn to the naming and shaming of Aja, that that opening sentence was actually JCJ setting out her stall, rather than just a preamble that I skimmed over.

Strange that when discussing that unnamed "event" in Brighton that JCJ has failed to mention the issue that rankled so much with her and her fan club at the time. Not the uninvited presence of members of Hearts of Oak but the presence and active participation of women who she might perceive as having far more clout than Aja, such as Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce, Helen Saxby - and was Stephanie Davis-Arai there too? I can't recall.

Helen Joyce has tweeted approvingly about the "citizen journalism" of Jack Appelby, who attended at the "Two Tier Policing Rally" in London, and she is being accused of supporting Tommy Robinson, being a racist, fascist, an idiot, etc.

https://x.com/HJoyceGender/status/1817285356187746386

Archived: https://archive.ph/twUeH

Is Helen Joyce "scummy" too?

This is an interesting AI Summary of Jack Appleby's Twitter thread:

https://poe.com/s/Z9dxS34P25qDf76PfLue

Archived: https://archive.ph/xfy6j

It ends:

"Overall, the thread by @j4ppleby offers a thought-provoking account that challenges simplistic narratives and encourages a deeper understanding of the motivations and concerns of people attending controversial events."

I never thought I would be recommending anything by Jack Appleby, or AI, but there you go 🤷‍♀️

No.

Aja et al. can do what they like. I don't care

Now you've changed your position on this, will you also change your position on your previous statement that my belief that Aja et al are entitled to attend a legal protest and not be shunned, means I shouldn't be trusted to be involved with any trans widows of your acquaintance Cassie?

Who exactly is on here that you think disagrees with that and why? Because to me thats virtue signalling nonsense to deflect from that fact that there is now a lot of GC people amplifying far right messages. Which are nothing to do with safe spaces or anything else.

Like backtolurk says, if you really believed that you'd be applying the exact same standards to left wing women and women who support TRAs. You aren't.

Wow.

I deffo believe there is Christian fash so I’m calling you out for not acknowledging that.

That is not the same thing at all. Talking abour "Christians who are fascists" is not the same as talking about "Christian Fascism".

Anyway, go on then. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about them and how their religion makes their Christian movement "fash".

Remember Islamism is a political ideology, rather than a religion per se .

"This paper begins with a short history of the Islamism-fascism comparison. It then argues that both Islamism and fascism are coherent political ideologies. The author proposes a four-fold typology of different discourses in respect of the Islamism-fascism comparison, which are called ‘Thou shall not compare’, ‘Islamofascism’, ‘Islamofascism as epithet’, and ‘Dare to compare’. It’s concluded that we should compare Islamism and fascism, but that the two ideologies are distinctive, totalitarian ideologies. Clerical fascism is the closest ideologically to Islamism, although it is also a distinctive political ideology.

In 2016, Hamed Abdel-Samad published a provocative book entitled Islamic Fascism in which he suggested that the ‘Islamofascist’ worldview has its origins with the Muslim Brotherhood, which ‘had always eulogized the principles of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini.’ 1 Abdel-Samad also suggested an association between the ‘Islamofascist’ ideas of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini: His hatred for Jews, support for Hitler, and praise for the Holocaust. 2 In the midst of USairstrikes against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), Salam Saadi, the editor-in-chief of Rudaw Kurdish, pinned the fascist label on the ISIS:

The Islamic State (IS) is nothing but a blend of Islamic fatalism and radical nationalism that tries to compensate for all the past humiliations of the Arab world. This makes IS a fascist ‘state’.
The fascination of Islamic radicalism with fascism is not new. Hassan Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a book in 1935 that Italian fascist and dictator Benito Mussolini was practicing one of the principles of Islam.The relationship between Islamic extremism and fascism is historical. The extremists have used the Koran to look down on and degrade non-Arabs, boasting that God sent his latest revelation in their language. 3"

https://archive.ph/xd3Ka

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/us/christian-nationalism-politicians.html

The term islamism was not used.

And you are splitting hairs. The apologism is something else.

Read the article I just posted.

It’s long but much better crafted than JCJ’s guff. Shouldn’t take you long.

Of course not all Christian’s are fascist, just as not all Muslims are fascist.

But fascists exist who want the world to be arranged around their particular religion.

I oppose both.

You pretend neither exist.

Islamic Fascist or Islamist is the VERY DEFINITION OF SPLITTING HAIRS.

Stop down playing Fascism, Cassie, it’s dangerous.

In the US. Applying US politics to the UK is nuts.

Pretending US politics doesn’t affect the UK is nuts.

Downplaying facism again!

Do you think it’s only fashy if Tommy Robinson is organising it?

What you tend to call " splitting hairs" is actually drilling down into the finer details. It is always helpful to have some depth of awareness when one makes blanket statements.

Are you aware of a corresponding Christain political ideology that would equate with Islamism?

What do you think of the idea that Karl Marx, in disavowing religion, created almost a new secular/political faith?

I don't think anyone has said that right-wing or any other women shouldn't have the same rights as other women on this thread.

What some of us have said is that not separating the rights of women from far right influences, eg by attending far right events, supporting people who do, refusing to ask the far right not to attend or putting distance between them and women's rights when they do, has given the far right leverage in women's rights campaigns so that they can promote nationalistic, racist, anti-women politics and be cheered on by some sectors of the women's rights movement.

And that this is ultimately detrimental to women and women's rights.

Stop shouting.

I'll pay attention when there is rioting on our streets caused by that movement and loads of prominent women tweeting and retweeting it, when we have MPs elected to represent that movement in the HoC and its moving into mainstream discourse so that I'm being repeatedly told I have to "take the concerns seriously" and "listen to their reasonable views." When the UK have caused themselves serious economic and reputational harm because they've been hijacked by that agenda.

Until that point it's Internet scaremongering. Wanky intellectual "this is just as bad logically as that" while completely overlooking the real life ramifications is just posturing and trying to "win".

I'm sure I've been told by posters on this very thread that raising links between the American Christian Right and the UK Conservative party is a conspiracy theory

I don't think the American Christian Right are fascists. I don't think GC women are fascists. I think both movements contain people who are sympathetic to fascism and are tolerating it too much.

I think the EDL amd Tommy Robinson are fascists and frankly am alarmed by the "well what is far right anyway?" discourse around them.

Logical hot air and trying to gotcha people doesn't change the fact its only the far right out there taking advantage of child murders to pick a racist fight.

Like backtolurk says, if you really believed that you'd be applying the exact same standards to left wing women and women who support TRAs. You aren't.

Don't be ridiculous. It literally makes zero sense. I absolutely believe that politically misguided women have the same basic rights as I do.

I have said many times I'm not interested in discussing prejudiced views on Muslims. I am no tolerance of it. In the same way as I would be if you started stereotyping Jews or Christians.

Just stop it. It is repellant.

Of course not all Christian’s are fascist, just as not all Muslims are fascist.

But fascists exist who want the world to be arranged around their particular religion.

I oppose both.

Me too.

And what relevance is that to the point about far right politics in the GC movement?

Either none, in which case its virtue signalling.

Or its relevant, in which case you should be equally vocal on threads about the views of left wing or TRA women.

Or I guess the third option is "when I say all women I only mean the ones in my tent"

I deffo believe there is Christian fash so I’m calling you out for not acknowledging that.

I think Cassie realises that if she acknowledged the harms of Christian fundamentalism she would have to apply the same standards to Islamic fundamentalists.

Either none, in which case it's virtue signalling.

Right wing dog whistle, many people say, @CassieMaddox

Any TR event is well known to be exactly what it is. He's not exactly low profile really? I could understand it if it's not someone prominent but he is.

Unfortunately there are POC who are also racist or xenophobic so her being Black doesn't mean she's incapable of also having far right views, i'm not sure if she does as i don't know enough about her to be able to give an opinion.

There are many aspects of 2 tier policing, but do people really believe Tommy Robinson understands the actual situation? No because he thinks policing is pro immigrants etc. When in reality women and POC are more likely to feel the effects of 2 tier policing.

Deliberately ignoring RW influence into any movement or push in society is damaging to society as a whole. If you don't agree with them, call them out don't support them and don't push their other ideologies to new audiences. When i'm at pride or a similar event, if i encountered racist bigots you bet i'm calling them out on that. Just like if they had speakers with views that were disgusting and damaging to people.