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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 28/07/2024 07:31

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
107
fromorbit · 01/08/2024 01:35

NotBadConsidering · 31/07/2024 23:27

Kellie Harrington fought him before in Tokyo. I bet she knew at the time but couldn’t say anything:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/olympics/58068888

Read Kellie's account of the fight I posted in the thread at 15.06 Wednesday. It is very revealing. It looks like the story of her statement today is nonsense though.

This new Telegraph article is good:

IOC are betraying women in worst possible way
Olympics organisers putting female boxers at risk of extreme harm by allowing fighters with abnormally high testosterone levels to compete

https://archive.is/3k8D2

Massive thread of media coverage of the scandal from SEEN in journalism
https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1818707726374986212

It is everywhere. Huge coverage in other language press as well. With the new IBA statement all eyes are on the IOC.

Letter to the IOC from lots of prominent women and pro women groups organised by The Countess group,
https://thecountess.ie/open-letter-to-ioc-about-womens-boxing/

Pro-women Protest is being organised by Róisín Michaux in Paris tomorrow at the site of the match. Details on X here

https://x.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1818723399666946288

x.com

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1818707726374986212

MarieDeGournay · 01/08/2024 01:50

There is a boxing-politics subplot here as the IBA, which disqualified the two boxers from women's competitions, was mired in corruption scandals around the Rio Olympics - I remember Michael Conlon clearly outboxing his Russian opponent but losing the match and a medal, a blatant fix that made the IBA's dodginess obvious to all.

Even though it carried out reforms, the IBA is still not well regarded, and is considered to be under the influence of Russia, links with Gazprom etc.

So their rulings on Khelif and Lin will be seen by many as coming from a very dubious source, with some justification. The fact that the IBA won't give details of the tests doesn't help.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the IOC is right, I'm just saying that there has to be something stronger than the IBA's say-so to make the case that just because their passports say they are female, it's ok for them to fight females.

mirrensidhe · 01/08/2024 03:44

Thanks for the links @fromorbit

ChateauMargaux · 01/08/2024 07:49

@Oldcrone I am not clear whether you are suggesting these players are XX or not or whether as claimed more than once on here and in other threads that there is a claim that these athletes are XX.

I have not seen this and if it exists, I would like to read it.

You wrote: "Therefore the assumption is that they claim to be XX." The eligibility rules referred to by IOC, section 1.4 and 3.1 do not refer to chromosones or testosterone or indeed, sex or identity with the exception of stating that women should not be pregnant.

The IOC inclusion framework states, and repeates several.times, that identity is the key factor in determining eligibility for the female category and that no advantage should be assumed from either trans identity or sex characteristics.

This undermines the logic that XX must be the basis for inclusion in the female category and any deductions or assumptions around this.

The recent guidelines directing journalists not to speculate on the gender or sex of athletes is further obscuring any facts around this case.

That said, the information available around the Zambian footballers is more transparent, these are DSD athletes who have chosen not to reduce their levels of testosterone. (Links elsewhere if you wish to search for them.) What is intriguing is the relative silence about the footballers.

Zambia are unlikely to progress and they haven't injured anyone, but they have caused untold damage to female football in 4 seperate countries and taken lucrative contrcts away from women, being the two most expensive players in the history of women's soccer.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:32

I've been looking through the BBC's Olympic schedules for today, and the match that is scheduled for 11.20 am this morning doesn't appear to feature - or does it? Anyone know?

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:43

"Everyone competing in the women's category is complying with the competition eligibility rules,' said IOC spokesman Mark Adams on Tuesday in response to the furore. They are women in their passports and it's stated that this is the case, that they are female.

Officials say they are using rule books based on the version that applied at the Rio de Janeiro Olympics in 2016.'They are eligible by the rules of the federation which was set in 2016, and which worked for Tokyo too, to compete as women, which is what they are. And we fully support that,' Adams said".

Somone ought to alert the utterly deaf ears of the Labour Party - that when you make it easier to change your sex marker on official documents, including birth certificates and passports - then people assume you have also changed sex.

Boiledeggandtoast · 01/08/2024 08:44

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:32

I've been looking through the BBC's Olympic schedules for today, and the match that is scheduled for 11.20 am this morning doesn't appear to feature - or does it? Anyone know?

It's on this link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paris-2024/schedule/2024-08-01

Olympics Schedule - Paris 2024 day-by-day guide of events

Find out the day-by-day schedule from the Paris Olympics 2024 for each sport and event including athletics, swimming, football, cycling and more

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paris-2024/schedule/2024-08-01

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:52

Boiledeggandtoast · 01/08/2024 08:44

And the television schedule? I can't see it on the main BBC channel, nor on 'Extra'.

Retiredfromthere · 01/08/2024 08:53

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:32

I've been looking through the BBC's Olympic schedules for today, and the match that is scheduled for 11.20 am this morning doesn't appear to feature - or does it? Anyone know?

Perhaps BBC have decided not to show it? At least not live.
They no longer show on their website the Kellie Harrington fight at Tokyo Olympics where she boxed against https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/olympics/58068888
I assume they do not show all the olympics events?
It is still listed on the BBC and Olympics websites as happening.

I think there may be some sort of protest at this event so perhaps that will be on the news. Or not.

Once again I have a little sympathy with the sportsperson who has been led to believe that this is no big deal. They have backing of government and backing down must be really really tough for them now. Fought in Olympics in Tokyo without all this attention. This mess is down to the IOC's actions. Hoping that the Italian boxer can win or at least not be harmed. Imagine qualifying, all the excitement and not this.

UpThePankhurst · 01/08/2024 09:02

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 08:43

"Everyone competing in the women's category is complying with the competition eligibility rules,' said IOC spokesman Mark Adams on Tuesday in response to the furore. They are women in their passports and it's stated that this is the case, that they are female.

Officials say they are using rule books based on the version that applied at the Rio de Janeiro Olympics in 2016.'They are eligible by the rules of the federation which was set in 2016, and which worked for Tokyo too, to compete as women, which is what they are. And we fully support that,' Adams said".

Somone ought to alert the utterly deaf ears of the Labour Party - that when you make it easier to change your sex marker on official documents, including birth certificates and passports - then people assume you have also changed sex.

It's ok to let men batter women cos reasons!

And more reasons!

Big fat waffly reasons!

Plasmodesmata · 01/08/2024 09:13

The BBC would be unlikely to show today's boxing match as they are very limited in their live coverage due to TV rights reasons - they can only show one thing on live BBC1 and one additional live thing on iplayer, so are concentrating on events with GB athletes in them for the most part. Whether the boxing will be available later on catch-up I'm not sure.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cjk3vkpxz1po

Paris 2024 banner in swimming pool

The BBC's Olympic TV deal and what it means for you

Since 2018, the way the BBC covers the Olympics has changed a bit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cjk3vkpxz1po

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 09:15

Plasmodesmata · 01/08/2024 09:13

The BBC would be unlikely to show today's boxing match as they are very limited in their live coverage due to TV rights reasons - they can only show one thing on live BBC1 and one additional live thing on iplayer, so are concentrating on events with GB athletes in them for the most part. Whether the boxing will be available later on catch-up I'm not sure.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cjk3vkpxz1po

Yes, to watch this you will need Discovery+ who are covering everything.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/08/2024 09:16

I understand the Australian TV channels are showing every event......I've found the BBC's coverage schedule very frustrating TBH - very confusing

OldCrone · 01/08/2024 09:40

ChateauMargaux · 01/08/2024 07:49

@Oldcrone I am not clear whether you are suggesting these players are XX or not or whether as claimed more than once on here and in other threads that there is a claim that these athletes are XX.

I have not seen this and if it exists, I would like to read it.

You wrote: "Therefore the assumption is that they claim to be XX." The eligibility rules referred to by IOC, section 1.4 and 3.1 do not refer to chromosones or testosterone or indeed, sex or identity with the exception of stating that women should not be pregnant.

The IOC inclusion framework states, and repeates several.times, that identity is the key factor in determining eligibility for the female category and that no advantage should be assumed from either trans identity or sex characteristics.

This undermines the logic that XX must be the basis for inclusion in the female category and any deductions or assumptions around this.

The recent guidelines directing journalists not to speculate on the gender or sex of athletes is further obscuring any facts around this case.

That said, the information available around the Zambian footballers is more transparent, these are DSD athletes who have chosen not to reduce their levels of testosterone. (Links elsewhere if you wish to search for them.) What is intriguing is the relative silence about the footballers.

Zambia are unlikely to progress and they haven't injured anyone, but they have caused untold damage to female football in 4 seperate countries and taken lucrative contrcts away from women, being the two most expensive players in the history of women's soccer.

Sorry my post wasn't clear. I don't have any more information than anyone else.

Neither of them have claimed to be men who want to be women ('transwomen'), but I don't think either of them have said they are not transwomen either.

Neither of them have claimed to have a DSD, but I don't think either of them have claimed not to have a DSD either.

They claim to be women, but I don't think they have made any claims about their chromosomes either.

My conclusion was that their lack of claims to be either trans or have a DSD meant that they were claiming (by omission) to have XX chromosomes.

All we know is that they claim to be women and the IOC thinks that because it says 'female' in their passports that they are women. The IOC is showing itself to be operating at the level of a pre-school child who thinks that when a man puts on a dress he turns into a woman. They should be embarrassed.

MarieDeGournay · 01/08/2024 10:04

Out of all the lack of clarity around these two boxers - not claiming to be transgender, not DSD, haven't had testosterone levels tested, at least one may actually believe they are a woman having been brought up female - one thing is clear, as Shortshriftandlethal says:

- that when you make it easier to change your sex marker on official documents, including birth certificates and passports - then people assume you have also changed sex.
and that's all the IOC require.

I think Lin v. Michaela Walsh (Ireland) is a possible match-up later.

quantumbutterfly · 01/08/2024 10:32

fromorbit · 01/08/2024 01:35

Read Kellie's account of the fight I posted in the thread at 15.06 Wednesday. It is very revealing. It looks like the story of her statement today is nonsense though.

This new Telegraph article is good:

IOC are betraying women in worst possible way
Olympics organisers putting female boxers at risk of extreme harm by allowing fighters with abnormally high testosterone levels to compete

https://archive.is/3k8D2

Massive thread of media coverage of the scandal from SEEN in journalism
https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1818707726374986212

It is everywhere. Huge coverage in other language press as well. With the new IBA statement all eyes are on the IOC.

Letter to the IOC from lots of prominent women and pro women groups organised by The Countess group,
https://thecountess.ie/open-letter-to-ioc-about-womens-boxing/

Pro-women Protest is being organised by Róisín Michaux in Paris tomorrow at the site of the match. Details on X here

https://x.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1818723399666946288

Roisin has some thought provoking posts on her twitter feed. The picture of Jozef puska's hand is heart-breaking.

Datun · 01/08/2024 10:41

Christ, what the fuck is happening. That man hits the ball like a fucking bullet. The girl is brain damaged and fucking paralysed.

It's bad enough in running, jumping, etc, but when you can use your 160% more powerful upper body strength??

Germaine Greer has never been more right.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 10:44

fromorbit · 01/08/2024 01:35

Read Kellie's account of the fight I posted in the thread at 15.06 Wednesday. It is very revealing. It looks like the story of her statement today is nonsense though.

This new Telegraph article is good:

IOC are betraying women in worst possible way
Olympics organisers putting female boxers at risk of extreme harm by allowing fighters with abnormally high testosterone levels to compete

https://archive.is/3k8D2

Massive thread of media coverage of the scandal from SEEN in journalism
https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1818707726374986212

It is everywhere. Huge coverage in other language press as well. With the new IBA statement all eyes are on the IOC.

Letter to the IOC from lots of prominent women and pro women groups organised by The Countess group,
https://thecountess.ie/open-letter-to-ioc-about-womens-boxing/

Pro-women Protest is being organised by Róisín Michaux in Paris tomorrow at the site of the match. Details on X here

https://x.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1818723399666946288

From the
RoisinMichaux Twitter you posted. I think it is a
memorable and effective caption:

2024
The Year Violence Against Women Became an Olympic Sport

fromorbit · 01/08/2024 11:01

Well lets hope Angela Carini is ok today at 11.20 am. Everyone will be awaiting the result. There is no way out for her. If she wins it will be used to prove women were making a fuss over nothing, not because she had to fight on a extra high level to counter disadvantage. If she loses then it is humiliating and potentially dangerous. And another woman has to face the same danger.

The IOC's sexist tolerance of violence has really focused attention. I can see them backing down partially after this. Sadly I suspect what will happen is they will ban men from fighting or contact sports with women while allowing them in elsewhere. All while blaming women for being bigots. When the real problem is men can't handle other men wearing makeup and doing sports.

That kind of partial sports backdown is what happening in the UK.

However longterm this stuff is not going to work. It is like all the long attempt to crush women's sports they all failed in the end. The TAs hatred of women is so blatant they can't restrain it. We just need to keep pushing and it will fall down.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 11:03

Datun · 01/08/2024 10:41

Christ, what the fuck is happening. That man hits the ball like a fucking bullet. The girl is brain damaged and fucking paralysed.

It's bad enough in running, jumping, etc, but when you can use your 160% more powerful upper body strength??

Germaine Greer has never been more right.

Who ever allowed that to happen to her/the organisers need to be sued for huge amounts.

It is outrageous that her life has been affected this way owing to such egregious stupidity on a scientific and common sense level because of following cult thinking.

I think Biden signed in a lot of stupidity on this when he became President.

quantumbutterfly · 01/08/2024 11:08

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 10:44

From the
RoisinMichaux Twitter you posted. I think it is a
memorable and effective caption:

2024
The Year Violence Against Women Became an Olympic Sport

Yes.

NotBadConsidering · 01/08/2024 11:18

Is anyone watching it? I’m watching the bout before, on now🤔

Timinfuckingruislip · 01/08/2024 11:23

NotBadConsidering · 01/08/2024 11:18

Is anyone watching it? I’m watching the bout before, on now🤔

Trying to work out what channel it’s on

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 01/08/2024 11:25

I think it may be on Eurosport? Which I don't have access to

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