Tinkerbell syndrome, pronoun badges and trans existence

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Inspired by some posts in a now-full thread:

Someone in the workplace who is trans is literally existing as trans in public. Yet we are told that disagreeing with accessories like pronoun badges means we don't want transpeople to exist in public.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson? Is not noticing the badge transphobic? As most people, including those with specific protected characteristics and including most transpeople to be honest, don't wear badges announcing their identity, does this mean they don't exist in public?

I would argue the sole purpose of pronoun badges is to involve others in the validation of a specific type of trans identity whether they consent to this or not and even if they don't understand they have been allocated as having a supporting role in someone else's main-character life. But speaking on a personal level, I have my own priorities and interests - I find it an imposition to be subjected to the macroaggression of being expected to change my natural language processes for someone who will never be part of my concerns.

(I don't normally start threads so if I don't come back I'm not shaving my hairy feet, I've probably forgotten or something)

But being a priest is a job, not an internally made up identity, and ‘Reverend’ is a title not a pronoun.

What is the purpose of the Pronoun Badge?

To merely signal belief in Gender Ideology? Or is it signalling a requirement that the person wearing it expects others to abide by the diktat on it?

If it is the former and people are free to just ignore the implied demand on it, there is no point to it. It is clear that it is the latter, the language of MY pronouns are makes that very obvious - the wearer expects others to act in accordance with it, why ese would they be wearing it?

Others wearing religious clothing or symbols do not require those around them to do anything, say anything or think anything. Pronoun Badges require the participation of others in a belief a person holds about themselves a turban does not.

No.

If it is the former and people are free to just ignore the implied demand on it, there is no point to it. It is clear that it is the latter, the language of MY pronouns are makes that very obvious - the wearer expects others to act in accordance with it, why ese would they be wearing it?

Precisely. Everyone knows the purpose of the Pronoun Badge, despite all the disingenuous comments.

Exactly.
Pronoun badges really are the thin end of the wedge.
It all starts off as innocuous, "I don't mind if you use my pronouns or not", to "I'd prefer that you use them" to "if you don't use them I'll be upset" to "you must use them or there will be consequences for you" to "we would like everyone to now wear a pronoun badge" to " you must all wear pronoun badges and have your pronouns in your work email".

It is a symbol that you believe in genderism and everything that goes along with that.

That's like saying being an observant Christian is a slippery slope to the Spanish inquisition 😂

What happened to the concept of "my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins?" Why does it matter whether or not you think the badge/pronouns are relevant, if it's not affecting you in any way.

Has nothing on this thread managed to explain to you how and why pronoun badges do affect people?

What happened to the concept of "my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins?
Not sure where you're going with this, really. Maybe you should apply it to the question of "Why the hell would anyone think they can dictate how other people refer to them when they're not even in the room"?

Exactly, it's a complete reversal of the situation, in a very predictable way.

It absolutely DOES affect me if I, or any woman, am being asked to change my language under threat of repercussion for not complying.

It absolutely DOES, and just because YOU can't see that doesn't mean it's not happening in companies and service providers all over the world.

Stop shouting.
Yes. But that's not to do with badges or preferred pronouns.

I mean this kindly. Your life will be a lot easier if you stop seeing trans people as The Enemy Coming To Take Over. The situation now isn't what it was 5 years ago. People's GC beliefs are protected. You aren't going to lose your job for refusing to use preferred pronouns. You might if your refusal takes the same form as KJKs doctor tantrum, but that's because people deserve not to be insulted and treated aggressively at work.

I said upthread I see both things as equally bad.

Noone has the right to demand other people use the pronouns they specify. Either way. Trans people don't have the right to demand you use gender based pronouns. And you don't have the right to demand they use sex based pronouns.

Sorry, reversal of what? I got that quote from you, years ago! Do you now think trans people don't deserve the same respect as everyone else?

No, my life is quite good thanks, and I have no intention of stopping advocating for the rights of women and girls.

Have a look at the thread elsewhere, 3 MEN just won gold, silver and bronze in a prestigious female cycling race. Trans people are very much taking over in some areas of life that should belong exclusively to women.
You're very much incorrect.

Did anyone else watch the TV series State of the Union (US)?

The premise has a couple meeting up in a coffee shop each week just before they go to their (off-screen) relationship counselling session. The episodes are short, and it's essentially a two-hander, except for a McGuffin in the form of a non-binary barista played by Esco Jouley.

The man is relentlessly anti-woke, and spends a lot of time trying to work out what sex the barista really is, whilst the woman is laughably woke and assumes barista must be vegan etc etc.

Anyway I'm now retrospectively annoyed that the writer (Nick Hornby) has used this as a stick to beat sex-realists with whilst ducking the real issues, by casting Jouley who is genuinely androgynous and AFAIK of publicly undeclared sex (I have a theory but that's irrelevant). Just imagine the creative writing challenge he could have set himself by making the barista a non-passing transwoman complete with pronoun badge.

As it is he makes the man look like an arsehole (what kind of person hassles someone who just might have a dsd?) and also creates a false impression that this gender thing is really complicated and that non-binary isn't usually a completely made up thing adopted by attention seekers. Knowing nothing at the time, I was taken in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Union_(British_TV_series)

And you don't have the right to demand they use sex based pronouns
Has anybody demanded that right? Or are they simply insisting on their right to refer to others however they choose, without any demands being made on them at all?

People have said pronoun badges shouldn't be allowed in the NHS. That they are an ideological symbol of the genderist cult, etc etc.

So yes, that sounds to me like demanding people use sex based pronouns. Otherwise why get so het up about a flipping badge?

This.

And women are having to spend, quite literally, millions of pounds taking proponents of this ideology to court. They've had to spend money getting belief in biological facts protected by law!

Women everywhere are having their sons and daughters brainwashed by this bloody ideology.

It's absolutely risible someone who claims they're gender critical can't defend it.

And not only that, uses the fact that we've had to go to all these lengths to minimise it!

I mean this kindly. Your life will be a lot easier if you stop seeing trans people as The Enemy Coming To Take Over. The situation now isn't what it was 5 years ago.

And that's absolutely not because of people like you, Cassie.

It certainly doesn't sound like that to me 🤷🏻‍♀️
It sounds like a perfectly reasonable dislike of being instructed to use language in a way you wouldn't choose to, to concede to the demands of someone else.

Sorry, reversal of what? I got that quote from you, years ago! Do you now think trans people don't deserve the same respect as everyone else?m

And you are reversing it so it has no meaning, as pp pointed out. You (general you) have the freedom to assert your beliefs with pronoun badges or any other trappings of your ideology, but you don't have the freedom to impose on me and my freedom of belief with them.

And it's absolute bollocks to say this doesn't happen. The entire point of a badge is to get other people to call you by your made up pronouns. Imposing your belief on them.

Yes and I never argued different

My consistent point is people should be able to wear the badges if they want and others can ignore them if they want.

Others are arguing a load of hyperbolic nonsense, we've had the badges compared to Nazi insignias ffs.

General "you" sound like chicken licken. Meanwhile KJK gets to behave aggressively to a trans person, swear at the staff and doxx the surgery and that's fine, because pronoun badges should be forbidden.

It's crazy.

Exactly. How about as a compromise, you can wear your pronoun badge, but there is a company guideline that staff don't need to use opposite sex pronouns as it's an ideological question, so following the diktat of said badge is optional? I think I could live with that.

This post, page 2, sums up how I feel perfectly.