Are young women insane?

[irishmurdoch]

Just been on a Reddit travel forum where young people planning their "year out" are discussing the merits of mixed gender hostel rooms. Lots of women talking about men snoring but absolutely none of them seem to be aware of the safeguarding risks. My mind is boggling. AIBU??

Nothing to do with boundaries being eroded. I'm 55 travelled a lot when I was young. Lots of mixed sex accommodation.

they're just not jaded, leave them alone.

Ha! Someone talking about sleeping in a train station reminded me of the one and only time I was ever attacked in my extensive travels as a lone young female. I was sleeping on the floor of a large UK airport to avoid having to pay for a hotel. At around 3am I went to the loo. And was grabbed and punched by the only other occupant - a woman. Luckily she was quite a bit smaller and slighter than me and I managed to get away and raise the alarm. Turned out she was having a seriously psychotic episode and thought I was trying to destroy the airport and kill everyone. The police were very concerned about me but all I had was a small bruise on the jaw.

I’m not trying to create any sort of equivalence between this experience and male violence - I’m only too aware that the vast majority of violence is carried out by men, and if my attacker had been a man even of the same height and body weight I probably wouldn’t have been able to get away. I suppose I just wanted to say that travelling carries risks as does everything in life and it’s about managing those.

I don't think that's true. I work with young people. Some genuinely seem to believe women are as strong as men. That's a recent idea.

I don't think that's true. I work with young people. Some genuinely seem to believe women are as strong as men. That's a recent idea.

I've come across this too.

I think every generation of young women is heavily invested in the idea that they're equal to men in every respect and also that they're the first generation to ever enjoy fully equal relationships with men. I was just the same. I also had several near misses that I never told anyone about or even thought about too deeply, because to do so would interfere with the narrative that I could look after myself.

But even at my most reckless, I always knew I wasn't as strong or as fast, even though I didn't like to admit it too often, whereas I've talked to a number of young women who appear to genuinely believe they're just a Karate class away from being able to fight off men on an equal footing, and who called me sexist for being sceptical. How typical they are of their generation, I don't know.

When I was younger I invested a lot of mental and physical energy in trying to show I was stronger/faster/more skilled than men, or at least stronger than they expected me to be - in retrospect, I'm sure many were holding back.

Years of social mixed sports has left me in no doubt that almost all men are stronger than almost all women (which is backed up by the science) and I no longer feel the need to compete, though do experience the same enjoyment when I do better than expected against males!

Ironically this understanding came the same time my competitive contact team sport started allowed self-IDing males to play with women. Many younger women in that sport have not come to the same understanding and are now being put at risk of serious harm.

At the same time most women I know would only date a guy who was taller, wealthier, more attractive and more successful than them. At the same time the guy would be expected to go along with them being equals.

I thought ageism was hated on here?

To an outsider allowing men to play in women's sports is a continuation the falsehood that's been perpetuated that men and woken are equal when clearly they are not.

When science shows that they are different but arguably complementary.

Equality and being exactly the same are two different concepts.

I travelled alone and stayed in mixed sex dorms in my 20s for a long period. I generally got on better with blokes and it worked well for me. I didn't think of those risks largely because if you are traveling alone you are at risk generally anyway and you have to build trust quickly with anyone you are sharing a room with regardless of sex. Time is different and you get to know people in a different way. I'm still in touch with an American guy I shared a room with. I think there's an element of not shitting on your own doorstep too - if you assault someone in the room you are staying you are easy to identify. Why would a man necessarily take that level of risk? When traveling I'd argue there's easy targets without that level of risk available.

To highlight my point, I'd use the example of where I was sexually assaulted in a hostel. The incident didn't occur in a dorm. I was followed into a single sex toilet late at night. I did report it. I think I was actually in a single sex room at the time. I have no idea who the person was and couldn't really give a helpful description and that's the point and why it probably happened. Opportunity and lower risk of being identified. So I'd argue that these facilities were probably higher risk than the dorms themselves. And looking back I think there were other places where I think I was more vulnerable than the dorms.

Most of the girls were travelling in pairs to begin with, whereas the boys were much more likely to be alone and that evened a lot of the power dynamics up tbh too. I was unusual as I was slightly older (the others tended to be late teens whereas I was mid twenties). Given that I'd flown alone to the other side of the world alone, I think the way I assessed risk was different anyway. I was already used to going out as a single female anyway and using instincts to get the measure of others around me very quickly. There were situations and scenarios that I avoided that girls travelling in pairs were more likely to put themselves into because they felt a different level of security - perhaps false security.

Then there's the environment. You are also around similar aged people with a similar mindset. It's not like going to a club purely to pull - that can and does happen - but I do think it's different too. Plus your guard levels are often different to when you are in your home country or with close friends. It's hard to explain. There were people who didn't fit in and they stood out a mile. You would avoid them and situations with them. And you would communicate with others around you differently. It's a different social structure which isn't necessarily reflective of the wider world and honestly, perhaps is more safe than you might think as a result. Most are more educated, middle class young people than the broader general population.

Again I think the other particularly awkward situation I had which reflects this was in a mixed hostel in Belfast. The hostel didn't take stag groups and there were signs up saying this. Except they appear to have cocked up and not challenged a group of lads. I was friendly to one of them and they took this the wrong way. And harassed me repeatedly included sitting on my bed trying to wake me. Again I reported it. The hostel were very good about it. But I've always felt this experience was not typical of staying in hostels - the group were not the normal type of person to stay in a hostel and their motivation for being there was slightly different. They were older (in their late 30s I guess) and weren't 'travelling' so to speak. They were asked to leave I believe.

I think it depends on where you go and which type of hostel you staying at (some cater for slightly different demographics and that affects the atmosphere). Staying in hostels in Europe, Australia/NZ, USA, Canada and the UK and Ireland have their own unique character. Out of everywhere the place Id least like to stay in a hostel is unfortunately London - and that's to do with our drinking culture and differing levels of respect for others. And that possibly also colours why we are having this conversation about safety in mixed dorms too as this is British site and from British experiences in the first place - not necessarily from people who have travelled and stayed in dorms. Which is a bit of a sad thing to have to say tbh.

They absolutely were in the hostel I stayed in, I checked.

That’s not what I’m saying (as I’ve done both). Not having mixed dorms makes travelling as a couple more expensive, unless you both opt for separate dorms from each other, which feels odd.
The only incident for me occurred in a female dorm (cabin) when I was on my own, a drunk man came in and stood looking at me, I had to repeatedly yell at him to get the fuck out. After a while you’d get a feel of the places to avoid, “party hostels” being the main ones. It’s a lot like Redtoothbrush post, it was a different time.

Like many people I thought I was invincible when I was young, I was fit & strong, could stay up all night, drink vast amounts without a hangover and did some very foolish things in retrospect.
Lots of young women who did what I did, are not here to tell the tale, I was lucky. Risk assessment is a rare or hard earned skill in the young.

I'm not specifically thinking about travelling and hostels because I think there's a broader point, which is that when you're a young woman, it's entirely normal to want to believe that men, as a sex, pose no risk to you, and to behave accordingly.

I don't think that's an insane view because who would choose to go out into the world believing otherwise? And, as quantumbutterfly says, many of us have been taken similar risks - some of us got away with it and some of us didn't.

What does seem to be new though, is the idea that, if you put your mind to it and work hard enough, you can be a physical match for a male. If this has taken root and if it means young women are going into risky situations - travel or otherwise - with their guard already down, then that's troubling.

I've not said they are?

Some women have tried to suggest otherwise.

What's stood out to me on this thread is that lots of women have described feeling safe on mixed sex hostel dorms because there are lots of people around, and the hostel has the guests' details, so men are unlikely to try anything.
But we've had FOUR women describe being victims of sexual violence on mixed sex hostel dorms. Two of those women also experienced the dorm-full of observers doing nothing, or blaming them.
I absolutely respect that women have to decide for themselves what level of risk they're willing to tolerate - what experiences they'll miss out on in order to decrease risk of sexual violence versus what risk they'll take in order to live life more fully. But I'm uncomfortable with pretending the risks aren't there - the assertion that mixed sex dorms are safe places where sexual violence doesn't happen - on the very same thread of stories of this happening. Our choices are only free if we're not making them in a fantasy version of our world.
Thank you @MellowExpert , @NeedToKnow101,@Nothingeverything and @renthead for sharing your stories and I hate how glib it sounds but I wish those things hadn't happened - didn't keep happening x

I backpacked a lot in my youth forty years ago and the hostels and bunkhouses were all mixed sex. They’re usually supervised by on site staff so it’s really rare for anything to happen within the hostel or bunkhouse.

Safety is relative. Nowhere is 100% safe for a woman. We are always at risk of sexual assault.

Start a thread on going to bed in your own home and ask how many women have been sexually assaulted or raped by a boyfriend or other male friend spending the night or a male relative living with them. Start a thread on travelling on a girls holiday and ask how many women have been sexually assaulted clubbing in Ibiza/Istanbul/Paris/London etc. Start a thread on calling an Uber or riding the bus and….well you get the picture.

There is nowhere that is safe, the question is how safe or unsafe is it compared to other places?

The fact that four women were sexually assaulted in mixed sex hostels doesn’t make them particularly unsafe relative to the general level of safety we usually have in other spaces.

I absolutely know there's a risk, but as I said upthread, there's probably a greater risk in a cheap hotel on my own.

I think it's not necessarily about safety but it's about the relative safety.

Hostels carry certain risks regardless of whether dorms are single sex or mixed.

These risks may or may not be reflective of wider society. I think it depends on the nature of those using them and their behaviours.

I spent a number of months in one hostel. In others I was there for a night or two. Some I was totally alone and knew no one. In others I had a group who knew me and looked out for me.

This changes the culture of them and how safe they are and for who.

So I wouldn't say they were unsafe as such. I wouldn't say there were safe either.

Thing is, it doesn't have to be ALL men, it only takes one. And unfortunately the bad 'uns don't wear a sign on their foreheads saying 'Will rape if given the opportunity'. No way would I share a dorm room with strange men.

Not RTFT, but I think generally young people as a whole are naïve in a way that I've not seen before.

The Jay Slater thing comes to mind as a recent example (rest his soul), but I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not common practice anymore for friends to go out and be watching each other's backs, not split up, not make sure everyone gets back to where they're staying safely etc.
They'll merrily just all go off and do their own thing - is it because they feel they have a crutch of a phone?? What if their mates don't pick up???? Or in Jay's case, your phone runs out of battery?

It baffles me.

It's not new at all - hindsight and the internet just make it appear so nowadays when information is so easily available. I was lucky enough to be brought up a militant feminist and was constantly told I was being unreasonable or paranoid when I fought back against social norms which in hindsight are really inappropriate. So many of my friends were raped as teenagers through situations they assumed were safe. Society hasn't changed that much and the indoctrination women and girls experience is so insidious and adaptable women are just as vulnerable as they ever were

Also, sad but true, women who haven't experienced male violence generally don't realise how much stronger men are - a difficult and sobering lesson to learn

Sadly many people don't have good friends or friends at all!