Less Heat

[Brainworm]

The media coverage of the attempted assassination of Trump prompted me to recall a time when a friend of mine worked in the House of Commons in the mid 1990s. Whilst political differences were as significant then as now, MPs from opposite sides of the house were best men at each other's weddings (yes, it was mostly men who were MPs), god parents to each others children etc.

Whilst the 'gender debate' is often described as 'toxic', this is within a climate of it being common place for political views / positioning to being considered something other than 'different conclusions/positions'. Views and opinions are often dismissed or condemned as 'hateful' or 'ignorant', when they simply involve people giving more weight to certain points than others and drawing different conclusions.

I can be, and am, friends with people who claim TWAW. I can be friends with someone who believes there should be single sex spaces yet males with certain thoughts about them should be admitted. The thing that would get in the way of our friendship would be refusal to have reasoned discussions and incorrect accusations of hatred. If I felt that their opinions were based on false premises, I could just say that and still maintain my friendship. I could only maintain a meaningful friendship if they also 'agreed to disagree'.

I have friends who follow all sorts of fad diets and buy 'miracle creams' for cellulite. I have friends who play the national lottery - experiencing a frisson of excitement that this week they really feel it's their lucky week. I am the 'sciencey' friend who 'pisses on their chips'.

I have some friends who are incredibly angry and anxious about climate change. They are also 'TWAW' and want TW to be included in female spaces. I have explained to them that the 'real and present' threat they feel around global warming despite there being little impact of people's current daily life, is similar to the threat some people feel in relation to single sex provision. Since this discussion, they have been far more open to my position and views and we can and do discuss them at times. We also connect and have fun together in lots of other ways and they are lovely, caring people who enrich my life.

I think social media, and what is reported, gives rise to the idea that people with different views are so polarised that they can't have civil discussions, let alone be friends. I'm interested in hearing from FWR posters as to whether this is the case for them?

@Alwaystired94

Graham's wife didn't leave him, she was forced out of their home by constant abuse from the TRAs.

where has she stated that she was forced to leave him due to TRA hounding him and not because she didn’t want to be married to him anymore? i can’t see she’s ever said that…

She's decided to remain silent and not support him, but he has told us this is the reason in many interviews & also his autobiography covers it extensively.

so you’re saying i should believe a man telling me why a woman did something? no. because of course why would he lie? well the same reason most men lie, to get trick people (usually women) to agree with them.

his autobiography is HIS POV.

Let's avoid the deflection tactics.

I used to think pronouns were respectful. But they're the gateway. Why should any man require me to show my respect by referring to him as she, when, as it turns out, that respect only goes one way.

@Alwaystired94
pronouns are just a part of language. your reaction to pronouns is just a tad over the top, do people forget that pronouns exist outside of trans people?
When people talk about pronouns in this context, it's obvious they are talking about policing language, no? Do you think women should be obliged to use pronouns they disagree with? Should they be punished for not doing it?

Genuflection to males does seem to come very easily to some women. It's like they're brainwashed.

do i feel it’s a basic bit of respect? yes. referring to someone by their preferred pronouns isn’t you agreeing that they are a woman. it’s just not being antagonistic. which is why i asked this earlier. what respect and dignity do you afford trans people?

and in this context, it doesn’t make any sense. that is a biological woman he has an issue with. i have my pronouns visible as i’m GNC and have a name that’s used for both men and women. so people know what to use.

So what of you don't remember or make a mistake?

Also I don't see it as respectful to demand people alter their speech. I'll give you a different example, I have a Muslim colleague who doesn't shake hands with women. Should I force him to shake hands with me to validate me? Why not?

then that’s a mistake. it’s not antagonistic in that case.

Where do you draw the line?

My preference is for all single sex spaces and facilities to be respected by those of the opposite sex, irrespective of clothing and name choices. That they're not is highly disrespectful.

I mean, we can play this game forever.

There used to be a social contract that was understood by all. The "good men stay out so bad men stand out" stuff. Now that has been broken.

but yet GCs like Glinner can alter a conversation because they don’t like that someone has pronouns in their bio? what happened to let women speak? or do you mean only the ones who are anti trans?

no - you shouldn’t force anyone to have any bodily contact with you. no one is owed a shake of a hand. what a strange argument. i believe in body autonomy so believe no matter what, each person can decide about what happens with their body.

Re: pronouns, "respect", as usual, only seems to go one way. It is not respectful to ask people to lie.

i’ve said many times i believe in single sex spaces where possible*

*some things are hard to do such as healthcare. there should be a way to request single sex care but if there is not someone available the patient can make that decision in regards to their own health. but toilets, changing rooms and so on should be single use anyway and self contained but i understand that’s hard to do when many places don’t have the funds or resources to be able to outfit their spaces in that regard.

Ok I agree with no unwanted bodily contact but I don't think you should compel speech either. I think it is abhorrent that some women have been vilified for not using language that does not reflect reality.

so i ask again, what respect do you give trans people? if as people have said in this thread they want them to be respected, what are you doing for that?

FWIW using a pronoun doesn’t turn you into a TRA. just means you aren’t out to have an argument or cause problems.

i think everyone should agree with that personally.

it depends, how it comes across. if it’s aggressive and worded in a way that is to be a dick then being called out for it is one thing. being vilified for mistakes or saying something in a respectful manner is different. i’ve yet to see someone claim to be cancelled who hasn’t used inflammatory language or like Glinner earlier derail viral and important conversations about domestic violence because they want to score a point against TRA.

And I say again, lying is not respectful. Other people will naturally have other ideas about what constitutes respect. As for not having arguments or causing problems, I wish you all the best with that.

so what respect do you give them?

please enlighten me.

I tend to use pronouns correctly, as its a sex- based reference. A poster above uses pronouns to clarify their sex due to a non-gendered name. Fair enough. Your correspondents now know Dr Sam Brown is male, or female. More or less. It could still be a bit of a crap shoot, currently.
Demanding others use wrong sex pronouns for you isn't respectful. It's controlling. That's as appealing as a bucket of cold vomit.

I disagree. I don't think it's respectful for trans people to police other people's language. As for what respect I give trans people - the same as everyone else. I'm polite to everyone.

I treat them the same way I would anyone else. You seem to be angling for something over and above respect. Deference, perhaps.

It is not enlightenment you seek. I think you want - what's the word for it? - an argument.

i’m asking for examples of what constitutes respect to them? respect goes both ways and many on here aren’t respectful towards others. i’m merely asking for clarification on what respect means for you