How to react when your child corrects you about someone's pronouns?

[Thirtyfiveandcounting]

My dd is 12 & so far has had a very sheltered life. I am extremely GC & she has never asked about trans or non binary & does not have a phone . Anyways she had a sleepover with a friend in Sun night, she came home & was talking about a particular signed, I said he's a great singer & she said very crossly "they, he's non binary".. I didn't know how to react so I just said "that's me corrected!" to which she replied "yes it is" 😭 She said the girls mother then showed them a video of this singers new music video..
I think I should be blasé & not push my opinion which might push her into rejecting me? I don't want to get this wrong.

That's all they've got really, besides bullying.

Blackmail and bullying.

It's entirely possible I've been fooled about someone's sex in passing. Especially if I haven't spoken to the person. I was definitely fooled by a transman on a TV show.

Now I know though. An usually short man with sparse facial hair, a voice that's sounds like a boy just entering puberty and a very unusual body shape is likely to be a female human. With exposure we're all getting better at clocking.

My friend and I were watching a game show recently and we both immediately knew the sex of the contestant even though the person was shown from the neck up. We haven't been able to figure out exactly what it was that alerted us. Size of the face, maybe?

Quite. Add to that bereaved, traumatised, autistic. A lot of us on here are autistic ourselves, and see this ideology through the eyes of vulnerable kids. Time, experience and distance from our own teenage years helps us see the attractions as well as the incoherence of this ideology.

I’ve been openly GC with my kids for years. We’ve had robust and open discussions. They still use their trans-identifying friends’ required pronouns, but one thing they have not lost is ‘respect’ or ‘regard’ for myself or DH. We all love and respect each other. The idea that if you tell the truth to your kids and refuse to comply with the likes of all the authoritarian scolds on here your kids won’t love or respect you any more is so wrong it’s bordering evil.

Boy, do I feel chastised now no

Would you be kind enough to try to explain it to us unfortunate closed-minded lot here? I'm sure we'd all be mighty grateful.

@Murica

This paper tried to find out what it was. If looking purely at the head, with no hair cues, it seems it's mostly the shape (80%), and 20% is the texture and reflectivness of the skin.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004269892200133X#:~:text=However%2C%20research%20shows%20that%20even,et%20al.%2C%202009).

@Murica I was definitely fooled by a transman on a TV show.

I bet you mean First Dates?!

The shape/size of the brow and jaw can be quite telling, especially on mature adults.

The voices of transmen who are loaded up with testosterone all sound the same to me- vocal fry. Different to a female voice but still not very male- sounding. Just not deep enough!

I recently spent some time in a large city in Canada and saw a lot of trans men.

In real life they are very obvious. Different body shapes, different voice pitch, movement etc. There’s no way you couldn’t tell.

My kids have trans and non binary friends and know I’m GC. They don’t always agree with me but it’s not an issue, we have had many discussions and there are many points of crossover.

I am happy to take my guidance on the correct use of pronouns from the Cambridge Dictionary

dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/pronouns-personal-i-me-you-him-it-they-etc

Not a non-binary in sight.

"I have correctly sexed. Sex matters. How do you think babies are made? This doesn't change because of pronouns. Forcing others to use pronouns is not respectful. It is rude. Pronouns are homophobic and sexist. It's not my job to be nice, it's my job to be accurate and to make sure you understand the difference between sex and gender. We are all entitled to different beliefs and we should respect them, but we should not force them on others".

I've found my kids respond unthinkingly and automatically to the question, 'Oh. Male non-binary or female non-binary?'

Which has shades of the Boston marathon commenter (or competitor?) who suggested there should be an AFAB non-binary and AMAB non-binary division, for fairness. So close, and yet...

Applying international best research practices generally ensure you aren't taken in by self appointed "experts" authors. I would argue that is critical analysis foundation.

Well, it's 'he/him' if he has a penis - and you can tell this about a person without seeing the penis - and she/her if she has a vulva - which you can tell about her without seeing the vulva. Can't see as too far away etc 'they/them'. Only two sexes so only two pronouns + neuter (it) for non-human or non-living things.

@GenderRealistBloke

Thanks, interesting.

@Peskysquirrel
Nope, US Survivor.
I didn't know then to look for mastectomy scars. Now I do.

@MrsSunshine2b I do not understand the way "assigned at birth" is used to describe a person's sex. Sex is determined way before birth. Wouldn't "determined at conception" be more accurate?

She's not in the least bit bothered either way. People seem to give a lot of attention to a minority of trans and NB people who seem to spend a lot of time getting upset about being accidentally misgendered or otherwise being quite dramatic, and forget that there's plenty of people just going about their lives and politely requesting that people who know them use the terminology which makes them comfortable.

I avoided using sexed pronouns when I asked about your step-daughter as I thought that would make it look as though I was being deliberately antagonistic, but seemingly it’s ok to use ‘she’ as you have just done. So if she doesn’t require special pronouns, what actually constitutes her non-binary identity other than having short hair?

I’m a Quaker and we commit to telling the truth so I would not lie by calling a man a woman or a non binary person which does not exist. I am also a retired psychotherapist so do not agree that pandering to delusions is in any way kind. All the evidence is to the contrary. Respect for others’ views is really important but it does not mean agreement or capitulation. We can respectfully and kindly disagree.

@MrsSunshine2b
It's not a binary though, which is kind of the point. There are AMAB people who look very feminine and AFAB people who look very masculine, there are women with PCOS who can grow a full beard and men with low testosterone who never grow much hair at all

I was not AFAB. My sex was determined at conception and observed at birth. I have PCOS. I could, if I so wished, grow an impressive beard. But fuck right off with trying to use my medical condition as some kind of "proof" that sex isn't binary. A medical condition I only suffer from on account of being female.

My son, it seems, also has some kind of hormone thing going on. He has Gynecomastia, hardly needs to shave at all and doesn't have a particularly low voice. However as GP appointment are rarer than hens teeth we don't know what's causing all this.

I have asked her about this and she says she doesn't care about pronouns, and isn't particularly bothered what strangers identify her as, but she has altered her name slightly to make it more gender neutral. She simply says she doesn't feel like a girl on the inside, neither does she feel like a boy. She wears her hair short and almost exclusively boys' clothes but the only time it's ever an issue is:

• When people buy her very gendered "girly" items, which certain relatives occasionally do to make the point that they still see her as a girl and don't care that she isn't
• When her Mum refers to her as "beautiful young woman" or "talented young lady" on social media. She's determined it's "just a phase" regardless of the fact this "phase" started pretty much at birth and is still in full force now at 14.

She doesn't say much about either but she is disappointed every time.

PCOS is a female endocrine disorder. I have PCOS. I am not 'less female' because of my female endocrine disorder. My testosterone levels, higher than the 'average' woman, are nowhere near even the lowest possible range for a man.

The fucking gall of telling women on here (many of whom have PCOS) that we must respect the navel gazing, self obsessed whims of the 'non binary' bandwagon jumpers while insinuating that we are somehow back up the bullshite of 'sex isn't binary'.

In your position I'd explain that I don't use non-binary or wrong sex pronouns because they reinforce harmful gender stereotypes. Then explain why if she asks. This is what I already say to 10yo DD and she gets it, although she hasn't come across the pressure to use preferred pronouns yet so we shall see....

As a secondary teacher I have no fear of disagreeing with a teen/pre-teen, my life would be a lot easier if more parents did just that!

I came across a Wikipedia page about a nonbinary celeb (can't now remember who) which contained the memorable sentence "[Joss's] parents divorced when they were three years old". You must see the problem here.

Presumably not Naked Attraction!

Not at all, because the context makes it clear, nobody is married at age three.

If the sentence had said “when they were 25 years old” you might have a point.