Starmer tw don't have the right to use women only toilets

[lcakethereforeIam]

It's a headline in the Telegraph. Unfortunately when I archive it it goes to an article about that twat Ashworth refusing to answer. So, I've screenshot the headline

You've either not read the post, or are purposely misunderstanding it.

Is the "absolute twaddle" radio caller Mumsnet's very own Jane?

I'm getting very frustrated with all this talk about how trans women "with penises" shouldn't be in women's spaces.

The options are as follows:

• You keep all males out of women's spaces whether they have a penis or not;
• You allow all males into women's spaces whether they have a penis or not; or
• You have bouncers on the doors of all women's spaces checking people's genitalia.

Obviously option 3 is not a real option so which of the first two options is it going to be?

I can see this can't I, I'm not imagining it

"While Sir Keir did not mention lavatories specifically"

Yes. I think he mentioned "biological women's spaces". Unless he's explicitly said a GRC isn't a pass to these spaces, I'm afraid I don't believe him, and even if he did I don't trust him.

Sunshineandchill speak clearly, it's not about political correctness it's about using the correct language and not spouting twaddle.

When you say The Change it will be construed as you talking about the menopause by the majority of people.

I'd say right on, of course you can go in women's toilets when you've been through the change because only women can go through the change.

Bottom line is though, no amount of change will make a man a woman or vice versa.

I actually quite like the ‘with a penis’ clarification - because so many people wrongly assume that most transwomen don’t; but you’re absolutely right.

Keir Starmer is walking on a knife edge.

I am not certain Labour will get the majority people think.

And if the Tories get in, I'm not certain they'll be the women's rights champions they're positioning themselves as during this campaign.

That headline says "WON'T be allowed to use".
But that's not what KS said; he said "shouldn't". He hasn't elaborated about what he & his party would do if they get in government to ensure that "won't" word rather than "shouldn't".

It's empty, slippery words. As per.

Good point @senua

I detect a whole load of poll panic.

Jane from London came across as an utterly sincere and authentic voice. 'Twaddle' and 'every word that comes out of your mouth' must have hit home.

And now the doorsteps, the polls, the papers, the relentless questioning in interviews.

Finally, at 11 hours and 59 minutes, the fact that he's fucking women over seems to have made a dent.

I still don't trust it. Because it's just about getting elected. But, as we predicted, journalists can smell blood, and they won't stop.

I can't see them stopping after the election, either. Of course, our leverage would've disappeared by then. But keeping it front and centre in the news won't be something they won't.

What is really time consuming and honestly quite boring is people picking you up on things like saying “change” instead of “transition”.

If you look up the word transition in the dictionary, the definition includes the word change.

The Tories won't get in.

The only realistic possibilities are that Labour get a landslide and the Tories are annihilated, or that Labour get in with a modest majority and have either the Tories or Lib Dems in opposition.

My preferred outcome would be Labour getting in with a modest majority and having the Tories in opposition. Partly because the Lib Dems are absolutely batshit mental, particularly on gender issues, and partly because I don't want to see the Tories weakened to the extent that Nigel Farage might take control.

Agree with @Datun and @MissScarletInTheBallroom just above.

They won't stop. A deal has so obviously been done.

And no, it's not going to go away. They're not going to sell us down the river. They've totally underestimated what we know about this, how women feel about this and how motivated we are to never go Full Canada.

What KSs saying is a start I suppose, but he's just so damned slippery it's really difficult to trust what he says.

I can't remember a politician who has consistently changed his mind so much, again and again about any issue, ever. It's really is incredible!!!

Keir Starmer is the epitome of the Groucho Marx saying "Those are my principles and if you don't like them well, I have others"

Jane was brilliant

Sincere and beyond frustrated with the political waffle and nonsense deflection

It really helped this snowball

That is also my preferred outcome. I really want the Torys to rebuild and be a strong opposition.
What I don't want is an huge unfettered Labour majority and Reform to do to the Torys what RN in France have done to the Republic party.
I like to keep it moderate and a bit left, a bit right 🙂

It's because human beings cannot change sex. Therefore any change, or transition they do doesn't make any difference.

But practically, it doesn't seem to affect their behaviour or sense of entitlement either.

But, and most importantly, women's spaces are designed for women. For their biology. They are not designed as therapy, or validation for certain men.

We're not a resource, our spaces are not to be repurposed as something that men can use to make themselves feel better about their issues.

For fuck's sake. Where do people get off imagining that our spaces, which are designed for our needs, should suddenly become some kind of balm for the sex whose behaviour is the reason we have to have them separated in the first place.

Honestly, the misogyny just gets worse.

And if the Tories get in, I'm not certain they'll be the women's rights champions they're positioning themselves as during this campaign.
It hasn't been just during the campaign, there has been a growing recognition over the last few years. It would be a shame to lose that momentum. The trouble is that it seems to come down to one or two individuals e.g. May was no friend but I think Rishi gets it (or understands its usefulness to the Tories). This is the problem that Starmer has: even if he really believes (now, very late in the day) the rest of the party don't.

We need parties and institutions onside, not individuals.

My workplace (public sector) has issued guidance that anyone can use the toilet for the sex they identify with. There is further guidance encouraging trans allies to support trans people is accessing these spaces. What we really need is clear guidance from Government that women's toilets are for biological women only. Same goes for changing rooms. Until we have this, we will continue to see challenges.

You said "I cannot see a problem with allowing people who have been through the change to have access to women’s toilets."

I assume by "people" you mean "men".

You have now clarified that by "change" you mean "transition".

By transition, do you mean "change sex"? As has already been said, humans can never change sex, any more than any other mammalian species.

Or do you mean "had their penises removed"? Again, as has already been said, a man without a penis isn't a woman, he's a man without a penis.

Some men were moths. But now they're butterflies.
Well, they're still moths, but they've put make up on their wings.

I think it shows solvency, which is what we need. There is too much I am right and no one is going to change that kind of attitude.

Or do you mean "had their penises removed"? Again, as has already been said, a man without a penis isn't a woman, he's a man without a penis.

This idea that the only concession to be made to women is to remove a man who might actually rape her with his penis, is infuriating.

Quite apart from not being able to tell, who the fuck cares? Men can intimidate women with barely a raised eyebrow. Bullying, lasciviousness, or just standing there.

It's a piece of piss for a man to intimidate a woman, cock or no cock.

And it's really fucking galling that the focus is on how much effort he makes, rather than what the women actually want in their space.

The entire world is built around the importance of penises.

i have never understood this.

Starting to see a wee bit of a response from trans activists on X now. Seems somewhat half hearted, though.

We've got a 'diabolical' from Willoughby and a 'shameful' from someone else.

Haha!!

There is too much women saying no, and you're right, that ain't gonna change.

The answers no. Get over it.