Keir Starmer to end Tory Culture Wars

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Oh what a relief. Where would we be without him?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/exclusive-keir-starmer-says-he-will-end-tory-culture-wars-if-he-becomes-prime-minister_uk_6666d7d2e4b02fc48bf3ec39?d_id=7763591&ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main

Do you think your last two posts to me have been role modelling "listening and engaging"?
From where I am the "listening and engaging" demands appear to be very much one way (from right to left).

I don't care that you disagree, I do care about being personally attacked and sneered at for having a different opinion.

Public ownership of utilities like the water industry, whilst it's no quick fix for the awful state of our waterways and sewage systems, is a sensible and pragmatic policy which is supported by most of the public.

It's frustrating that the water companies have been asset stripped to oblivion and now the tax payer will have to pick up the repair bill tho :(

I see the manifesto wants to force retirement of House of Lords peers over the age of 80. Baroness Nicholson would be one of these, she would be an enormous loss.

We have AFD standing in our constituency, what a treat!

I’m listening to an audiobook at the moment that posters on this thread might find interesting and relevant to the idea of culture wars:

'The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy' by Christopher Lasch

It was written in the 90s about American politics but it’s still relevant to recent US and UK politics as well. It discusses the elements involved in the early era of this current age of tribalism and politics that has become dominated by the professional managerial class type of politician. It also discusses the rise of populism in response to voters feeling unheard during periods of rising social tensions. Some of the discussion is quite specific to US history, and the events of the 90s, but despite being dated a lot of it is generalisable to the situation we are in today. Even the areas of analysis that I definitely don’t agree with I’ve found to be interesting and useful in thinking about and formulating my own positions on issues.

I’m trying to read things outside my traditional political bubble so I decided to give this book a go as I saw it recommended by Simon Evans the comedian.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Revolt_of_the_Elites.html?id=dZ9mv5uyVPEC&redir_esc=y

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/586994.The_Revolt_of_the_Elites_and_the_Betrayal_of_Democracy

I can't fathom why a left wing voter would choose a very right wing option.

I think this sentence sums up why you can't grasp the arguments people are making on this thread.

You class yourself as left wing. That is your tribe and you can't imagine voting for a right wing party.

Because you have aligned yourself with the tribe of left-wingers, you assume everyone else also aligns themselves with a political tribe, and always vote according to that alignment.

Many people don't think of themselves as left wing or right wing. They vote for a candidate or party which most closely represents their own views at the time of the election. Or they are persuaded by some aspect of what a particular party is promising to to.

If you think about it, there must be many such people, otherwise we would always have the same party in power, yet there can be huge swings in voting towards left or right compared to the previous election.

You say that you can't imagine why someone who voted Labour in 2019 might vote Tory or Reform in 2024. Presumably that means you also can't imagine why someone who voted Tory in 2019 would vote Labour in 2024, yet if the polls are correct, then there must be many such people.

It's the floating voters without the tribal party alliances who decide the outcome of the election, not the party faithful who always vote the same way.

And just a final comment on this:
other left wing options are available

The left wing parties are all in thrall to gender ideology. If you're gender critical there is no left wing option.

The left wing parties are all in thrall to gender ideology. If you're gender critical there is no left wing option.

Oddly, I think that from the point of view of safeguarding women and children and sex based rights, the Communist party is not bad. But I am sure you meant viable left wing parties.

Communist party’s very reasonable analysis of Scotland’s proposals for self ID/gender recognition certificates https://www.communistparty.org.uk/the-gender-recognition-bill-and-equality-law/

^Transgender rights
At its 8th congress in September 2018, the party adopted a motion opposing "discrimination on grounds of race, sex or sexual proclivity" but condemning "identity politics, including LGBT ideology" as "reactionary and anti-working class", and declaring members promoting identity politics liable to expulsion.[20] The CPGB-ML have described identity politics as a "reactionary nightmare" imposed by the bourgeoisie.[21]This had led to allegations of transphobia by other organisations belonging to the British left.[22]^
(from Wikipedia)

Culture war is just like gender in a way, both are a bag of dicks, that I want no part of.

Given unlimited access to clean energy, I'd build a solar-powered interplanetary pleasure barge and sail off on a mission to toss them both into the sun.

I don't class myself as left wing at all 😂That is your assumption at work. I class myself as centrist. I don't have "a tribe". Partly why I'm pretty much a lone voice in a very tribal board.

I absolutely can imagine why a person who voted Conservative before might vote Labour now. Labour have moved to the centre so have broader appeal especially to the One Nation type Tories who've been deserted by their parties lurch to the right.

What I cannot understand is why someone on the left of Labour would feel "homeless" and choose to move to the far right. Noone has explained other than in terms of "meany Labour made them do it".

It is very reminiscent of Brexit TBH. People want someone to blame for their difficult circumstances and "outsiders" (e.g. immigrants or the EU) are always an easy target. I think the populist right wing know that and say what people want to hearing, knowing it's not feasible. Very damaging.

Just to go back to the "young people shifting right" point - some reporting suggesting it was driven in Germany by social media trends and TikTok.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/04/29/germanys-afd-is-finding-success-on-tiktok-as-its-youth-vote-grows.html

I know from my own children that Farage produces tiktoks for younger people with different messages- e.g. pro-Palestine.

Just found this, thought others on the thread might find it interesting
https://www.vox.com/2018/9/19/17847110/how-fascism-works-donald-trump-jason-stanley

Yes, I should have mentioned that the Communist Party was an exception. I agree that there is absolutely nothing left wing about identity politics and transgender ideology which is why it's such a mystery that most of the left has adopted the whole package.

As far as I'm concerned, personally, there is no left wing option, as there's no communist standing here.

I assumed you identified as left wing because you seem very pro-left-wing and very critical of the right. I also thought it was you who was always trying to persuade people here to vote Labour, despite their views on genderism, but maybe I've confused you with another poster.

I don't have "a tribe". Partly why I'm pretty much a lone voice in a very tribal board.

So what do you think my 'tribe' is, since you have decided everyone here belongs to one? Do you think we're all part of the same tribe or several different ones?

What I cannot understand is why someone on the left of Labour would feel "homeless" and choose to move to the far right. Noone has explained other than in terms of "meany Labour made them do it".

Several people have explained this, including me, but I'll try again.

First of all, you're conflating two things here. There are people posting here who are left wing, and feel politically homeless because they don't feel they can vote for any of the current left wing parties and won't vote for right wing parties. None of them will be moving to the far right.

There are other people (not the people posting here who identify as left wing) who previously might have voted Labour but may now vote for right wing parties. Those people are not 'on the left of Labour'. They are people with no political affiliation who vote for whichever party seems to best represent their concerns. In the past that might have been Labour, now it might be Reform.

You seem to be assuming that anyone who votes for a left wing party identifies as left wing and anyone who votes for a right wing party identifies as right wing. If you let go of that assumption and understand that many people don't have a political affiliation, it's quite easy to understand how their voting habits might change. It's only mysterious if you believe that everyone identifies as part of a political movement of some kind.

I like the part about how if how authoritarians can get people to believe lies, you can convince them to do anything. It really sums up how those who have been convinced some males are women can be persuaded to attack women's rights campaigners like KJK. Thanks.

I have no idea who you are voting for,because you rarely answer questions, only ask them.

I correct misinformation about Labour's policies (such as the repeated insistence they are bringing in self ID) because democracy is important to me and people need to be able to make an informed choice for it to work properly. I don't care at all who people vote for.

Separate to that in this election I will be voting Labour, mainly for their policies around reducing rape and VAWG. I've voted Tory, and Lib Dem before. This is my first Labour vote.

There are a lot of posters on this board enthusiastically promoting Badenoch/Cates/Tories and denigrating Labour. It appears to be a clique. Quite off-putting should you not be in that camp.

Not everything has to be about KJK surely! I know the men on here love her, but come on...

I thought this para was relevant to the thread:

In the past, fascist politics would focus on the dominant cultural group. The goal is to make them feel like victims, to make them feel like they’ve lost something and that the thing they’ve lost has been taken from them by a specific enemy, usually some minority out-group or some opposing nation.

She's just one prominent example. Lots of GC and radfem women have been subject to violence by authoritarian TRAs.

Not sure why you find this relevant to the thread as it is not applicable. See bolded part:

"In the past, fascist politics would focus on the dominant cultural group. The goal is to make them feel like victims, to make them feel like they’ve lost something and that the thing they’ve lost has been taken from them by a specific enemy, usually some minority out-group or some opposing nation."

Women aren't the dominant cultural group. Women also aren't made to feel like they have lost something, they actually have lost something: the right to their own sports category for example, that excludes all male people. So why quote this? Equating womens rights activists to fascists when they are plainly not is just name calling.

Quite off-putting should you not be in that camp.

There are a range of views on this site, it's not about you and other posters don't have to tailor their posts to what you find palatable. If you can make rational arguments, do so.

Women and GC women are also not the ones being fascist. That's the men. As usual.

Reform and to a lesser extent the Tories are using fascist rhetoric around immigrants, Muslims and to a lesser extent trans people to mobilise a voter base of primarily white men. By making them feel like they are losing something and are under threat.

Fascist leaning politiciabs have coopted GC feminist concerns for their own purposes, like malignant parasites on the movement. They have no interest in fixing any of it while it wins them votes. As shown by Badenoch "mulling" for 18 months and then conveniently finding a solution in time for the election.

That's what I think Starmer means by culture wars, and I agree with him.

If you think women's rights are safe in Annaliese Dodds' hands, well, good for you. Others may be more circumspect.