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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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20
ScrapeMyArse · 13/06/2024 09:54

OldCrone I couldn't agree more with what you said:

This is the problem with the left. People who are holding the left to higher standards are doing that because they are left wing in their political inclinations. Many are or have been Labour party members. They don't complain in the same way about the Tories (or 'the right') because they have never agreed with their politics or voted for them. The Tories are just that party that they would never vote for anyway. They don't expect to agree with them so when they have disagreements with their policies, it's just what's expected.

I'm never sure whether this point is genuinely or wilfully misunderstood? Almost all of my friends are some shade of socialist and none are happy with the current Labour party.

Opinions differ on what's the best course of action moving forward of course. But I'd say a streak of idealism and radicalism (ie to want to tackle root causes of issues) is common amongst socialists. In the long term we want a genuinely socialist government. Not a muddled, weak mess willing to be swayed by powerful behind the scenes lobbyists. Trans rights idealogues aren't the only worrying factions.

Tribalism is also sadly a common feature on the left but more and more people I speak to think it does more damage to Labour than good.

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 09:59

I can see why voters who want a socialist party are frustrated. The type who liked Corbyn Labour. Unfortunately they aren't in the majority and Corbyn Labour was unelectable.
What I don't understand (or necessarily believe) is those voters then responding by deciding to vote Conservative or Reform. There are so many other options. Green are pretty socialist now. Smaller parties and independents exist. The current Conservative party is quite right wing- partly why Labour have been able to move into the uncontested centre ground. On reading Reforms "contract" and looking at their dictatorial "party" structure, which is a business with Farage as CEO, they are very right wing. I cannot fathom why on earth a disillusioned socialist would vote for either of them except as some kind of toddler tantrum. And that toddler tantrum is going to have precisely no effect on Labour/the Left as the corresponding centrist votes they win from disaffected right wingers will outweigh them.

Incidentally I don't see any Conservatives on MN complaining about having no-one to vote for, despite the fact the polls show they are leaving the Tories in droves. It seems to only be a particular kind of "left wing" voter.

BezMills · 13/06/2024 10:03

It's always been a tricky problem for Labour. Blair seemed square the circle for a while, whether by luck or artifice (bit of the first and a lot of the second imo).

We have had a look at what happens when what you might call the Corbyn Tendency get a look in, opinions vary on whether that was a predictable establishment stitch up (corbyn tendency) or because they're simply not up to the job, and frankly embarrassing the movement (starmer tendency).

Looks like Sir Charity Shop Blair will get a go, and I honestly wish him all the best. Wouldn't want his job for all the tea in Yorkshire.

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 10:25

Starmer is never going to win over the young, and older, Momentum Corbynites; they rejected him years ago.....they're looking for independents, and more radical socialist parties to vote for or else the Greens; which is why I have to assume there must be an incredibly powerful LGBTQ+ lobby working behind the scenes and extracting commitments - for him to be holding so steadfastly to this one item of contemporary identity politics ( trans ideology).

As for Socialism - I used to believe in it, and it is a very nice idea - but it requires an authoritarian and controlling state in order to implement it. Its american equivalent is the politics of Equity, Diversity and Inclusion - and I just think that is very retrograde...nothing to do with the average 'working person' or improving their lot, or dealing with their concerns, which is why Trump has appeared.

Socialism could never happen now without ruthless government control over so many areas of life...and as a society I think we've moved beyond that.

The Left has always been factional and sectarian - as it ever seeks to pursue the impossible, and small differences of approach between people become gaping ideological chasms.

OldCrone · 13/06/2024 10:29

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 09:59

I can see why voters who want a socialist party are frustrated. The type who liked Corbyn Labour. Unfortunately they aren't in the majority and Corbyn Labour was unelectable.
What I don't understand (or necessarily believe) is those voters then responding by deciding to vote Conservative or Reform. There are so many other options. Green are pretty socialist now. Smaller parties and independents exist. The current Conservative party is quite right wing- partly why Labour have been able to move into the uncontested centre ground. On reading Reforms "contract" and looking at their dictatorial "party" structure, which is a business with Farage as CEO, they are very right wing. I cannot fathom why on earth a disillusioned socialist would vote for either of them except as some kind of toddler tantrum. And that toddler tantrum is going to have precisely no effect on Labour/the Left as the corresponding centrist votes they win from disaffected right wingers will outweigh them.

Incidentally I don't see any Conservatives on MN complaining about having no-one to vote for, despite the fact the polls show they are leaving the Tories in droves. It seems to only be a particular kind of "left wing" voter.

Missing the point again. Those of us who disagree with Starmer don't all want Corbyn back (or someone similar). He was TWAW and pro Brexit.

What I don't understand (or necessarily believe) is those voters then responding by deciding to vote Conservative or Reform.

Why? You are making the mistake of thinking that everyone who votes Labour is a socialist. Many are just ordinary working people who will vote for whatever party seems to offer the best policies for improving their lives. Many working class people are socially conservative and disagree with Labour's 'progressive' policies.

There are so many other options. Green are pretty socialist now.

As others have mentioned, the Greens have never been a party of the working class. They're for middle class socialists with concerns about the environment who can afford to have luxury beliefs.

Smaller parties and independents exist.

Exactly. Some left wing, some right wing. Some far left, some far right.

PronounssheRa · 13/06/2024 10:38

I cannot fathom why on earth a disillusioned socialist would vote for either of them except as some kind of toddler tantrum

They won't, some swing voters will and its swing voters that tend to decide elections.

Incidentally I don't see any Conservatives on MN complaining about having no-one to vote for, despite the fact the polls show they are leaving the Tories in droves. It seems to only be a particular kind of "left wing" voter.

MN is a website primarily used by women, many are left or centre left. Women feel let down by Labour and its dismissive attitude towards womens rights and safeguarding. Can you really not understand why this is discussed a lot on here.

BTW there have been threads where tory voters have said they won't be voting Tory, your just not reading or engaging with them.

TempestTost · 13/06/2024 10:45

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 08:54

Well luckily we get to know for sure in 3 weeks.
I think the polling so far doesn't support your argument.

And right here it is very clear that you do not understand at all what anyone has been saying.

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 10:46

I assume many of those who feel so much urgency for others to vote Labour, do so because they live in constituencuies which are solidly Tory, and if not Tory then Lib Dem?

Others of us, though, live in solid Labour seats and in places with permanent Labour councils, and as a result are not quite so enamoured, and certainly have no illusions. I guess we can also more afford to spoil our ballots if we choose. In my constituency there will not even be a Tory candidate, though there will be a Reform candidate. We will also have a Corbynite Labour party candidate; a radical socialist candidate, a Lib Dem and a Green. None of which I can comfortably vote for.

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TempestTost · 13/06/2024 10:57

I think that it needs to be said clearly that the Momentum Corbyn crowd are also not old style working class leftists.

They are, if anything, even more examples of the ruling professional elite than the centrist Labour people like Blair or Starmer. Corbyn was possibly to dumb to understand that, or maybe he thought those people would still bring in the kinds of policy that he wanted to see, despite being as far from the traditional working classes as you can get.

As for why a traditional socialist might vote Conseravative or even reform - look at the voters in the US who were supporters of Sanders. They very often became Trump voters. There are even traditional leftists in the US who became Trump voters. Traditional small c conservatism always had a lot in common with traditional leftism, values, policy, etc. Try reading something like Small is Beautiful, and try and decide what party today would offer that kind of policy approaches. Brexit should be a clue too - the left was always the home of Euroscepticism. If people don't understand why that is they aren't going to understand why the political landscape is changing.

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2024 10:57

I can see why voters who want a socialist party are frustrated. The type who liked Corbyn Labour.

Why do you always make such generalisations? Its so tedious. Is it really too much to expect the Labour party to have some socialist principles?

  • A working NHS that is free to access.
  • Privatise essential utilities
  • Social housing
  • A safety net for when people are too ill to work.
  • Trade unions that represent their members and not corporate interests.
RedToothBrush · 13/06/2024 11:03

OldCrone · 13/06/2024 09:39

You seem to have missed the point here. Have a look at this post by @CantDealwithChristmas and replies by @RedToothBrush and others.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5094288-keir-starmer-to-end-tory-culture-wars?reply=135963255&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

This is from that post:

TBH, my experience of genuine working class culture, having grown up in one, is that working class people tend to be small-c conservative on social issues, and indeed quite 'right' on some social, economic and domestic policy issues.

The original Labour movement reflected this.

It was Blairism which repositioned Labour towards free market liberalism. It then coopted American identity politics due to the influx of younger members in the late 2010s and that is the unholy Labour 'movement' we have now.

It doesn't really reflect the concerns of working classes anywhere in the UK and the middle classes pay lip service to it cos it benefits them career wise.

This is the problem with the left. People who are holding the left to higher standards are doing that because they are left wing in their political inclinations. Many are or have been Labour party members. They don't complain in the same way about the Tories (or 'the right') because they have never agreed with their politics or voted for them. The Tories are just that party that they would never vote for anyway. They don't expect to agree with them so when they have disagreements with their policies, it's just what's expected.

What do those working class Labour voters do now that Labour has become yet another party supporting middle class interests? I agree with your point about Starmer barely being 'the left' (because that is a large part of the problem with them), but they are still portraying themselves as a party of the left, while not representing the interests of traditional left wing voters at all.

Many left wing people here are saying they have no one to vote for. But some traditional Labour voters (not the ones on FWR) are instead turning to the more extremist parties which seem to appeal to some of their concerns. Labour has to take some of the blame for this because of their refusal to acknowledge the real concerns of traditional Labour voters.

People who can't grasp that I'm not even talking about now but about political trends and political history really are away with the fairies.

People don't necessarily vote in logical ways. Sometimes they vote the way they do purely because they aren't X.

So we see the pattern of people voting for Reform because they aren't the Tories who have fucked them over at a national level and because they are not Labour who have fucked them over a local level.

All you need is one idea that strikes a chord - being fed up of having to sit through a diversity course and being told you are racist and you are to blame for slavery when you know your family has been working class and exploited by higher ups for the last 200 years might just lead you to vote Reform because you are putting two fingers up at the establishment not because you are racist.

I know a woman in her late thirties who was saying she was considering it for exactly this reason because she thinks all this diversity training is actually counter productive and is racist in its own right. Hence some of my arguments about about pushing inclusivity too hard and in a way that people don't relate to us having unintended consequences.

I don't believe she's remotely racist. Quite the opposite. I do think she's off her rocker and hasn't a clue. But I also do understand the process that's led to her coming to this conclusion. It's the incomprehensible backlash that someone who is righteously wedded to the concept of inclusivity training can't see but they aren't listening.

I think this is the main issue - grassroots groups and individuals feeling like they are being talked over and not listening to so problems which aren't being dealt with and are festering are fair game for other political groups to capitalise on.

I acutely felt this arrogance over Brexit and the refusal of remainers to try and grasps the whys of it. It was easier just to label every as stupid or racist. It's far more complex than that and it's deeply frustrating. I was a full remainer but by the time we got to the 2019 election I think I felt alienated by those who continued to push on with it without nuance and thought.

This is the level and the thought processes we need to consider.

No it makes no sense. But it's not a culture war. It's about injustice and a feeling that authority isn't listening 'to the people' and it's middle class managers who are acting in a dictatoral way without understanding the problem. It's often not even about the issue at hand - it's charactered by the sense of things being the wrong solution to applied to a problem without understanding the problem in the first place. It's a frustration with hypocrisy and pick and mix approaches to different subjects based on political alliance rather than looking at a problem neutrally and wanting to actually solve it. Basically a sense of bad middle management by people who are over promoted. Once you see things through this lens it starts to make sense.

Reinforcing the idea it's a culture war is just highlighting the very problems that unpin what's driving division.

People don't mind compromise and working with others. What they object to is this alienation and contempt from power - political power or management levels.

That's why I say that trends will be interesting to follow.

Floisme · 13/06/2024 11:09

The reason for my disgust at Labour is simple: I used to expect them to stand up for women's sex based rights and spaces.

I wasn't surprised when they didn't get it straight away (for one thing, I remembered how much patronising nonsense Barbara Castle had to put up with) but I thought that once women in the party - e.g. the Labour Women's Declaration - had talked some sense to them, that they'd do the right thing.

I will admit, it didn't occur to me that they might not even talk to the LWD.

Even now, I'm still waiting to see what the manifesto says but I guess the final straw in the whole haystack was last week, when I saw our concerns openly belittled by senior leaders and party grandees as a distraction.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2024 11:11

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2024 10:57

I can see why voters who want a socialist party are frustrated. The type who liked Corbyn Labour.

Why do you always make such generalisations? Its so tedious. Is it really too much to expect the Labour party to have some socialist principles?

  • A working NHS that is free to access.
  • Privatise essential utilities
  • Social housing
  • A safety net for when people are too ill to work.
  • Trade unions that represent their members and not corporate interests.

It's not just about that.

It's also about how councils have been run by Labour and a backlash which isn't necessarily as obvious against that (the fact councils are restricted by Westminster in funding isn't necessarily understood).

So trust in Labour and the Tories has gone.

People voted LDs in 2010 for similar reasons then felt betrayed.

Ukip / reform haven't had to demonstrate their skills in office - this is a point often forgotten too.

ArabellaScott · 13/06/2024 11:12

It's the tribalism, for me. And yes, an obdurate refusal to listen.

Case in point being told you're a 'tory' or 'rightwing' or even 'fascist' for refusing to go along with the accepted group belief.

duc748 · 13/06/2024 11:15

It's not very helpful to generalise. I'm one of those who joined the LP when Corbyn was made leader. I didn't think he'd make a great leader, and thought him mule-headed about plenty (Hamas, Brexit), but nevertheless felt his election indicated a modest step towards something vaguely socialist in the LP. The sort of thing that @Thelnebriati is talking about. And my hair is sadly grey now, not blue! What I will say in passing about JC is that I do not believe he is an anti-semite, and, had he been one, he'd have been sussed out by his North London constituency long ago, and he's held that seat for many years. And never made any secret of his beliefs. And I think he has been cynically hung out to dry by Starmer, who seems happy to portray him as the font of AS in the Party (despite having served under him?).

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 11:15

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 10:25

Starmer is never going to win over the young, and older, Momentum Corbynites; they rejected him years ago.....they're looking for independents, and more radical socialist parties to vote for or else the Greens; which is why I have to assume there must be an incredibly powerful LGBTQ+ lobby working behind the scenes and extracting commitments - for him to be holding so steadfastly to this one item of contemporary identity politics ( trans ideology).

As for Socialism - I used to believe in it, and it is a very nice idea - but it requires an authoritarian and controlling state in order to implement it. Its american equivalent is the politics of Equity, Diversity and Inclusion - and I just think that is very retrograde...nothing to do with the average 'working person' or improving their lot, or dealing with their concerns, which is why Trump has appeared.

Socialism could never happen now without ruthless government control over so many areas of life...and as a society I think we've moved beyond that.

The Left has always been factional and sectarian - as it ever seeks to pursue the impossible, and small differences of approach between people become gaping ideological chasms.

Edited

which is why I have to assume there must be an incredibly powerful LGBTQ+ lobby working behind the scenes and extracting commitments - for him to be holding so steadfastly to this one item of contemporary identity politics ( trans ideology).

See I don't think this is true at all. He's rejected self ID. He's rejected the idea of males in sports and prisons. I think his position is similar to most of the general public and that's why he's talking about "culture wars".

I agree because I'm GC but also believe trans identities should be respected. And I'm 100% not anything to do with a "powerful LGBTQ lobby", just very anti-authoritarian and so don't think my opinion on someone else's life and how they live it is relevant.

Really interesting that you think the fact he takes a different position to you is evidence he must be under some movements control.

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 11:23

OldCrone · 13/06/2024 10:29

Missing the point again. Those of us who disagree with Starmer don't all want Corbyn back (or someone similar). He was TWAW and pro Brexit.

What I don't understand (or necessarily believe) is those voters then responding by deciding to vote Conservative or Reform.

Why? You are making the mistake of thinking that everyone who votes Labour is a socialist. Many are just ordinary working people who will vote for whatever party seems to offer the best policies for improving their lives. Many working class people are socially conservative and disagree with Labour's 'progressive' policies.

There are so many other options. Green are pretty socialist now.

As others have mentioned, the Greens have never been a party of the working class. They're for middle class socialists with concerns about the environment who can afford to have luxury beliefs.

Smaller parties and independents exist.

Exactly. Some left wing, some right wing. Some far left, some far right.

Stop with the "missing the point..making mistakes".
You are making the mistake of thinking that everyone who votes Labour is a socialist. No. I think most currently disaffected Labour voters are socialist. The fact Labour's voter share has grown has shown that disaffected Labour voters are very far from "everyone who votes Labour".

My point was 1) most Labour voters aren't disaffected at all, as shown by their increasing vote share; 2) other left wing options are available so 3) I can't fathom why a left wing voter would choose a very right wing option. Therefore I am skeptical about people who say that and assume they are applying a "socially acceptable" explanation as a fig leaf for their choice, that they chose to make.

I hate the far right so if some Labour voters "defect" because Labour isn't representing their far right views I really couldn't care less. Especially not when Labour are clearly appealing to the majority of the electorate. Its a democracy. If the majority of current voters prefer Starmers Labour, then the far right socialists lost, get over it.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/06/2024 11:27

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 10:46

I assume many of those who feel so much urgency for others to vote Labour, do so because they live in constituencuies which are solidly Tory, and if not Tory then Lib Dem?

Others of us, though, live in solid Labour seats and in places with permanent Labour councils, and as a result are not quite so enamoured, and certainly have no illusions. I guess we can also more afford to spoil our ballots if we choose. In my constituency there will not even be a Tory candidate, though there will be a Reform candidate. We will also have a Corbynite Labour party candidate; a radical socialist candidate, a Lib Dem and a Green. None of which I can comfortably vote for.

I am in the sort of place you describe.

This time though I have noticed there is an SDP candidate and they did have a reasonable stance on the protection of sex based rights for women:
https://sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

  • We support segregation by biological sex in sport. Fair competition is not secured if male-bodied transgender athletes are permitted to compete in women’s sport and, in the case
  • of contact sports, the risk of injury can increase significantly.
  • We support segregation by biological sex in prisons and women’s refuges in order to safeguard the safety and privacy of natal females. Separate prisons or prison accommodation should be provided for transgender citizens to ensure their safety and privacy.
  • Transgender individuals wishing to change their sex marker should be allowed to do so. However, we support the continued necessity for medical gatekeeping in any legal change of sex marker. We oppose proposals that would allow someone to change their sex marker by self-identification only.
  • The Equality Act and Gender Recognition Act will be amended to ensure that sex-based
  • rights which require protection in key domains are not undermined by a change in sex
  • marker.
  • Healthcare spending and resources for gender dysphoric individuals, including long-term psychological intervention, should be provided at sufficient levels. Physical or drug-based medical treatments for gender dysphoria should be prohibited for anyone under 18 years of age.
  • We support the retention of biological sex and gender identity as distinct categories in public sector data gathering such as crime statistics, poverty metrics or public health research.
  • We support the use of plain English for discussions of biological sex in health and reproductive care.

Then there is this SDP blog from 2020.

TRANS RIGHTS: A TRIUMPH OF MIND OVER MATTEREmpathy matters in the trans debate, but so do bodies
By: Mary Harrington
https://sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

BBC yesterday:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjkk2e6jp8eo
Mr Clouston said their policies in the area had consulted trans members of the party and that he believed gender dysphoria was real but that it “doesn’t mean that you can acquire rights and you can trample on sex-based rights”.

I just realised yesterday that there is an SDP candidate here, from a leaflet through the door , but have not yet researched their other general policies yet.

Does anyone know much about them? It would be a wasted vote except that normally there is only ever Labour here for Westminster, and sometimes one one two Liberal Democrat’s for the City Council ( where they have been a help).

SDP - Transgender and Sex-based Rights

We believe the rights of trans people must be belanced against the needs of biological females to remain safe.

https://sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2024 11:29

This mad scramble to find someone acceptable to vote for just before a GE shows how bad things are right now.

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 11:29

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2024 11:03

People who can't grasp that I'm not even talking about now but about political trends and political history really are away with the fairies.

People don't necessarily vote in logical ways. Sometimes they vote the way they do purely because they aren't X.

So we see the pattern of people voting for Reform because they aren't the Tories who have fucked them over at a national level and because they are not Labour who have fucked them over a local level.

All you need is one idea that strikes a chord - being fed up of having to sit through a diversity course and being told you are racist and you are to blame for slavery when you know your family has been working class and exploited by higher ups for the last 200 years might just lead you to vote Reform because you are putting two fingers up at the establishment not because you are racist.

I know a woman in her late thirties who was saying she was considering it for exactly this reason because she thinks all this diversity training is actually counter productive and is racist in its own right. Hence some of my arguments about about pushing inclusivity too hard and in a way that people don't relate to us having unintended consequences.

I don't believe she's remotely racist. Quite the opposite. I do think she's off her rocker and hasn't a clue. But I also do understand the process that's led to her coming to this conclusion. It's the incomprehensible backlash that someone who is righteously wedded to the concept of inclusivity training can't see but they aren't listening.

I think this is the main issue - grassroots groups and individuals feeling like they are being talked over and not listening to so problems which aren't being dealt with and are festering are fair game for other political groups to capitalise on.

I acutely felt this arrogance over Brexit and the refusal of remainers to try and grasps the whys of it. It was easier just to label every as stupid or racist. It's far more complex than that and it's deeply frustrating. I was a full remainer but by the time we got to the 2019 election I think I felt alienated by those who continued to push on with it without nuance and thought.

This is the level and the thought processes we need to consider.

No it makes no sense. But it's not a culture war. It's about injustice and a feeling that authority isn't listening 'to the people' and it's middle class managers who are acting in a dictatoral way without understanding the problem. It's often not even about the issue at hand - it's charactered by the sense of things being the wrong solution to applied to a problem without understanding the problem in the first place. It's a frustration with hypocrisy and pick and mix approaches to different subjects based on political alliance rather than looking at a problem neutrally and wanting to actually solve it. Basically a sense of bad middle management by people who are over promoted. Once you see things through this lens it starts to make sense.

Reinforcing the idea it's a culture war is just highlighting the very problems that unpin what's driving division.

People don't mind compromise and working with others. What they object to is this alienation and contempt from power - political power or management levels.

That's why I say that trends will be interesting to follow.

This long post completely fails to recognise the influence of the right wing press, broadcast and social media, telling people "diversity has gone too far".

If that was not happening, most people on EDI courses would just find it a boring but necessary piece of work. Like doing GDPR training. The right wing media are taking that unpleasant feeling of boredom and frustration and turning it into "its unreasonable to make you do these courses, you aren't racist". People can then use that to avoid something unpleasant, which is human nature.

That's why Starmer is talking about culture wars. Its something manufactured. Exactly like Brexit where before the referendum the vast majority of voters couldn't give a toss about it. The right wing manufactured "a cause" and stirred people up into outrage. Very damaging to the country and society.

RebelliousCow · 13/06/2024 11:32

duc748 · 13/06/2024 11:15

It's not very helpful to generalise. I'm one of those who joined the LP when Corbyn was made leader. I didn't think he'd make a great leader, and thought him mule-headed about plenty (Hamas, Brexit), but nevertheless felt his election indicated a modest step towards something vaguely socialist in the LP. The sort of thing that @Thelnebriati is talking about. And my hair is sadly grey now, not blue! What I will say in passing about JC is that I do not believe he is an anti-semite, and, had he been one, he'd have been sussed out by his North London constituency long ago, and he's held that seat for many years. And never made any secret of his beliefs. And I think he has been cynically hung out to dry by Starmer, who seems happy to portray him as the font of AS in the Party (despite having served under him?).

I briefly re-joined Labour under Corbyn - but had a rude awakening when he simply failed to stand up against bullying and intimidation in the party; especially in local CLPs. He'd be at meetings when a candidate or MP was being treated and spoken to appalllingly - yet he never once called it out. I lost all respect for him then. I thought he had honour, and principles - he does, but they are all ideological.

Anti semtism is not as simple as being prejudiced just because someone is jewish - a lot of it has far deeper roots and now manifests in automatic prejudice against Israel above all others......along with the unconscious use of age old anti semitic tropes in demonstrating that disapproval and hatred.

If a Jewish person is supportive of or attached to Israel they are fair game......and that happened a lot on Corbyn's watch. My Labour MP was terribly bullied and intimdated by her Corbynite CLP - purely because she was a 'friend of Israel'. I heard people say the most terirble things about her...as if she wasn't even fully human. Corbyn allowed that to happen, and even encouraged it. ideology come before everything else.

She was bullied out after 20 years as a good, solid constitunecy MP - and replaced with a Corbynite who now re-tweets Mermaids, and who comes out with " Israel is a fascist state",even as her constituency office is right opposite a synagogue.

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 11:32

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2024 11:29

This mad scramble to find someone acceptable to vote for just before a GE shows how bad things are right now.

The majority of people aren't in a "mad scramble". It's magnified on here by all the "I'm politically homeless" posts.

There are plenty of options. Pick the closest to your values and vote for them. Grow up and stop hand wringing that "my parry won't do exactly what I want". It's a democracy. That's how it works.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2024 11:33

The ACTUAL LAW isn't being reflected by diversity training.

But its the Right Wing Press's fault.

For literally doing their job in holding power to account and pointing out that the law is not being following.

Yep. Lalalalalala fingers in ears.

Floisme · 13/06/2024 11:34

Thelnebriati · 13/06/2024 11:29

This mad scramble to find someone acceptable to vote for just before a GE shows how bad things are right now.

Yes indeed, I've never really checked out independent candidates before so it's been a delightful surprise, and also quite humbling, to discover we have a decent, local candidate who I think I will be happy to endorse should the need arise (as I expect it will.)

It does make me wonder how many other strong candidates I've overlooked in the past because I was to tribal to even look.